Trouble With Levels - HELP ME

GeneRes · 09/07/2009, 11:20 AM

So I have recently set up a 75g and need some help. Here are the specs:
Currently running :
75 Gal Oceanic Tall
SeaLife Systems ProSeries Wet/Dry Trickle w/ skimmer
2 bags BIOCHEM carbon (i think thats the brand)
216W 4 Bulb T5 Unit
Home Built canopy and cabinet

Inhabitants:
50lb LR
Convict n Sailfiin tang
Sm Clarkii
Dragon Goby
Banggai Cardinal
2 20 poly zoa colonys
urchin
long tentacle fungia plate

So I have been having trouble keeping my levels straight. The tank has been set up for about 2 months now and has finished cycling (so I think). Anyway, I am having a hard time keeping the levels in the tank safe. I cut down on feeding to only flake food once every other day and a cube of mysis to try to reduce the ammonia and have done a 30% water change and a 10% since the initial startup. Still the ammonia levels seem to be balancing between .25 and .5 ppm , nitrite between 0 and .25 ppm, and nitrate between 0 and 5 ppm. The pH is around 8.0.

I think that I am about to lose my plate coral and am not sure what to do. HELPPPPPPP!!

Percula9 · 09/07/2009, 11:45 AM

If you are still showing ammonia and nitrites then the tank is not cycled. Don't feed flake food anymore. Put some ammonia neutralizer in the tank. There is to many animals for a tank that new. If you have a friend that has a well established tank, move the corals their. With what is going on you will probably lose the corals. I would add more live rock and feed every other day just enough. You don't have enough nitrifying bacteria to handle the load.

Playa-1 · 09/07/2009, 11:57 AM

You've made the classic mistake of rushing into this. Ammonia will kill all your livestock or permenantly damage them

An Ammonia binder may help to buy you some time. Large daily water changes until the Ammonia is at 0 and continue frequent daily water changes as necessary after that to keep the Ammonia at 0.

A better solution for you would be to see if your LFS will hold your livestock for you while you fix the problem. Use the down time to read a couple of good books on the subject.

I think adding another 25 to 50 lbs of liverock would be a good idea. Might as well loose the wet/dry filter while your at it. Recycle the tank with the new liverock and start over. Get the Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates to zero. Then start adding the livestock back, one fish every few weeks. This is supposed to be a slow process and this is not a good place to take short cuts.

Another issue is that it appears that you've completely ignored the whole QT process. Maybe an area that you want to read up on.

Check out this link
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/tips/index.php

bertoni · 09/07/2009, 02:05 PM

I'd add some Amquel, but I'd also get a second opinion on the ammonia test kit. They've been known to have problems. If you're using RO/DI water, and the filter is working, the ammonia kit should read zero on that.

I'm moving this to the New to the Hobby forum for more views.

GeneRes · 09/07/2009, 02:20 PM

the tank was first a fish only tank which i cycled for 2 weeks with some dirty filter media and a from a friend. the fish were added. after buying some cured LR from a friend I added about 25lbs. at the same time i added a bottle of bio spira. i then added another 15lbs or so a week later. my levels had been down for some time and now have started to rise again.

will the copepods live in water that is low in quality? J/w because i have a fairly large population in the tank and have read in some forums that this is a good sign of a healthy tank.

the corals have been opening daily and look healthy as far as i can tell. they respond to any outside stimulus, close up, the reopen soon after. as for the plate, i think he now RIP. i dont want to keep killing things. the fish are still very active throughout the tank and show no signs of stress. they are always eager to eat, the two tangs already take food from my hand.

i really have grown quite fond of the two tangs and really wouldnt mind getting rid of the other fish if that would help at all. they get along really well and are quite beautiful. buying a larger tank has already crossed my mind, but I have not decided just yet. it is definitely in the near future if i can find a deal on a bigger tank.

Playa-1 · 09/07/2009, 02:54 PM

One way or the other you have to get the Ammonia under control. Have the LFS retest your water. Also test the water your using to mix salt water to make sure you're not adding Ammonia to the tank with water changes.

returnofsid · 09/07/2009, 06:14 PM

Too many fish in too new of a tank. In fact, too many fish of a type that gets too large for a 75, no matter how mature the tank is. A Sailfin Tang should be in a tank at least twice that size. Your tank is grossly over stocked.

GeneRes · 09/07/2009, 06:31 PM

alright. so i brought back all of the fish except for the two tangs. HOLD UP TANG POLICE!!! i let the LFS test my water and they said from the look of all the levels of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, that the tank was going into another cycle.

i bought another 25 pounds of cured rock and put it into the tank this afternoon...

i am already looking to purchase another tank. probably a nice 150 within the next couple of months so that the two tangs dont outgrow the tank.

Playa-1 · 09/08/2009, 07:33 AM

You don't want those tangs in the tank with Ammonia in there.

GeneRes · 09/08/2009, 08:38 AM

i really dont want any animals in the tank, but the levels did drop with the water change already and I am goin to keep changing the water as much as necessary to keep them in the right direction until this second cycle is through.

Saltyllama · 09/08/2009, 09:58 AM

From what I've read you can actually make the cycle last longer by changing the water.

IMHO I'd have a friend hold the tangs for a few weeks and just let the LR do it's thing in the water. Then add them back in one at a time allowing the system to get used to the load. If you really like the tangs you should not want to stress or harm them in any way. Leaving them in a cycling tank is doing exactly that.
Also make sure you are at least up to 75-80lbs of LR in the system.

But what do I know, I'm a NEWB too!

Also, from my limited experience with my wet/dry you will be ok with it for a while. I'm still running mine actually. You will most likely have nitrate issues eventually though. However at that point you can slowly start removing bio-balls and replacing them with LR. Remember to do this a small portion at a time.

bertoni · 09/08/2009, 12:36 PM

Changing the water won't lengthen the cycle as long as it's done properly. I agree that the tangs could be damaged permanently by the ammonia, though.

GeneRes · 09/08/2009, 02:28 PM

so i have a guy coming to take a look at my tank today to check it with his test kit to make sure mine is working properly.

some people thought it was strange that the polys and zoas are still thriving and doing just fine while the long tentacle went to his grave in days. said it really could have just been that species

the fish are still healthy as of now and we wil see what my friend has to say when he gets

bertoni · 09/08/2009, 05:05 PM

That sounds like good news. There's a significant possibility that there's no ammonia in the tank, although I'm not sure corals are necessarily sensitive to the level you're reporting.

turtleone · 09/08/2009, 06:07 PM

Your amount of live rock was low genral rule is a minimum of 1ilb of live rock per gallon so at 50ilbs you were A little low from what Ive read you added 25ilbs more witch is A good thing I also think cycled rock or not you will still have die off take the advice of prvios post get all fish out start over after you levals remaing stable at good reading for at least A week start adding animals slowly maybe one of the fish you need to let the bioload adjust Its hard belive me I no but take from someone who has made same mistakes go slow.

willwork4frags · 09/08/2009, 08:33 PM

I would give the fish back to the LFS for credit. Let your parameters stable out. If you keep doing water changes, the cost of salt will out weigh the price of two new tangs.

09/07/2009, 11:20 AM	#1
GeneRes Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 7	Trouble With Levels - HELP ME So I have recently set up a 75g and need some help. Here are the specs: Currently running : 75 Gal Oceanic Tall SeaLife Systems ProSeries Wet/Dry Trickle w/ skimmer 2 bags BIOCHEM carbon (i think thats the brand) 216W 4 Bulb T5 Unit Home Built canopy and cabinet Inhabitants: 50lb LR Convict n Sailfiin tang Sm Clarkii Dragon Goby Banggai Cardinal 2 20 poly zoa colonys urchin long tentacle fungia plate So I have been having trouble keeping my levels straight. The tank has been set up for about 2 months now and has finished cycling (so I think). Anyway, I am having a hard time keeping the levels in the tank safe. I cut down on feeding to only flake food once every other day and a cube of mysis to try to reduce the ammonia and have done a 30% water change and a 10% since the initial startup. Still the ammonia levels seem to be balancing between .25 and .5 ppm , nitrite between 0 and .25 ppm, and nitrate between 0 and 5 ppm. The pH is around 8.0. I think that I am about to lose my plate coral and am not sure what to do. HELPPPPPPP!!

09/07/2009, 11:45 AM	#2
Percula9 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 3,819	If you are still showing ammonia and nitrites then the tank is not cycled. Don't feed flake food anymore. Put some ammonia neutralizer in the tank. There is to many animals for a tank that new. If you have a friend that has a well established tank, move the corals their. With what is going on you will probably lose the corals. I would add more live rock and feed every other day just enough. You don't have enough nitrifying bacteria to handle the load. Last edited by Percula9; 09/07/2009 at 12:06 PM.

09/07/2009, 02:05 PM	#4
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I'd add some Amquel, but I'd also get a second opinion on the ammonia test kit. They've been known to have problems. If you're using RO/DI water, and the filter is working, the ammonia kit should read zero on that. I'm moving this to the New to the Hobby forum for more views. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/08/2009, 09:58 AM	#11
Saltyllama Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 283	From what I've read you can actually make the cycle last longer by changing the water. IMHO I'd have a friend hold the tangs for a few weeks and just let the LR do it's thing in the water. Then add them back in one at a time allowing the system to get used to the load. If you really like the tangs you should not want to stress or harm them in any way. Leaving them in a cycling tank is doing exactly that. Also make sure you are at least up to 75-80lbs of LR in the system. But what do I know, I'm a NEWB too! Also, from my limited experience with my wet/dry you will be ok with it for a while. I'm still running mine actually. You will most likely have nitrate issues eventually though. However at that point you can slowly start removing bio-balls and replacing them with LR. Remember to do this a small portion at a time. __________________ 90 gallon RR w/ megaflow, mixed reef softie/LPS/SPS, 22 gallon split sump/fuge, BM NAC7 cone skimmer, GFO reactor, 4 bulb icecap 660 T5 retro Current Tank Info: 90 gallon w/ 22 gallon (actual volume) sump/fuge

09/08/2009, 12:36 PM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Changing the water won't lengthen the cycle as long as it's done properly. I agree that the tangs could be damaged permanently by the ammonia, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/07/2009, 11:57 AM	#3
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	You've made the classic mistake of rushing into this. Ammonia will kill all your livestock or permenantly damage them An Ammonia binder may help to buy you some time. Large daily water changes until the Ammonia is at 0 and continue frequent daily water changes as necessary after that to keep the Ammonia at 0. A better solution for you would be to see if your LFS will hold your livestock for you while you fix the problem. Use the down time to read a couple of good books on the subject. I think adding another 25 to 50 lbs of liverock would be a good idea. Might as well loose the wet/dry filter while your at it. Recycle the tank with the new liverock and start over. Get the Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates to zero. Then start adding the livestock back, one fish every few weeks. This is supposed to be a slow process and this is not a good place to take short cuts. Another issue is that it appears that you've completely ignored the whole QT process. Maybe an area that you want to read up on. Check out this link http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/tips/index.php

09/07/2009, 02:20 PM	#5
GeneRes Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 7	the tank was first a fish only tank which i cycled for 2 weeks with some dirty filter media and a from a friend. the fish were added. after buying some cured LR from a friend I added about 25lbs. at the same time i added a bottle of bio spira. i then added another 15lbs or so a week later. my levels had been down for some time and now have started to rise again. will the copepods live in water that is low in quality? J/w because i have a fairly large population in the tank and have read in some forums that this is a good sign of a healthy tank. the corals have been opening daily and look healthy as far as i can tell. they respond to any outside stimulus, close up, the reopen soon after. as for the plate, i think he now RIP. i dont want to keep killing things. the fish are still very active throughout the tank and show no signs of stress. they are always eager to eat, the two tangs already take food from my hand. i really have grown quite fond of the two tangs and really wouldnt mind getting rid of the other fish if that would help at all. they get along really well and are quite beautiful. buying a larger tank has already crossed my mind, but I have not decided just yet. it is definitely in the near future if i can find a deal on a bigger tank.

09/07/2009, 02:54 PM	#6
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	One way or the other you have to get the Ammonia under control. Have the LFS retest your water. Also test the water your using to mix salt water to make sure you're not adding Ammonia to the tank with water changes.

09/07/2009, 06:14 PM	#7
returnofsid Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,852	Too many fish in too new of a tank. In fact, too many fish of a type that gets too large for a 75, no matter how mature the tank is. A Sailfin Tang should be in a tank at least twice that size. Your tank is grossly over stocked.

09/07/2009, 06:31 PM	#8
GeneRes Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 7	alright. so i brought back all of the fish except for the two tangs. HOLD UP TANG POLICE!!! i let the LFS test my water and they said from the look of all the levels of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, that the tank was going into another cycle. i bought another 25 pounds of cured rock and put it into the tank this afternoon... i am already looking to purchase another tank. probably a nice 150 within the next couple of months so that the two tangs dont outgrow the tank.

09/08/2009, 07:33 AM	#9
Playa-1 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA Posts: 7,497	You don't want those tangs in the tank with Ammonia in there.

09/08/2009, 08:38 AM	#10
GeneRes Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 7	i really dont want any animals in the tank, but the levels did drop with the water change already and I am goin to keep changing the water as much as necessary to keep them in the right direction until this second cycle is through.

09/08/2009, 02:28 PM	#13
GeneRes Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 7	so i have a guy coming to take a look at my tank today to check it with his test kit to make sure mine is working properly. some people thought it was strange that the polys and zoas are still thriving and doing just fine while the long tentacle went to his grave in days. said it really could have just been that species the fish are still healthy as of now and we wil see what my friend has to say when he gets

09/08/2009, 05:05 PM	#14
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	That sounds like good news. There's a significant possibility that there's no ammonia in the tank, although I'm not sure corals are necessarily sensitive to the level you're reporting. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/08/2009, 06:07 PM	#15
turtleone Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 62	Your amount of live rock was low genral rule is a minimum of 1ilb of live rock per gallon so at 50ilbs you were A little low from what Ive read you added 25ilbs more witch is A good thing I also think cycled rock or not you will still have die off take the advice of prvios post get all fish out start over after you levals remaing stable at good reading for at least A week start adding animals slowly maybe one of the fish you need to let the bioload adjust Its hard belive me I no but take from someone who has made same mistakes go slow.

09/08/2009, 08:33 PM	#16
willwork4frags Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 52	I would give the fish back to the LFS for credit. Let your parameters stable out. If you keep doing water changes, the cost of salt will out weigh the price of two new tangs.