refuge Q

tat2shawn · 09/08/2009, 11:57 AM

What will be best to have my refuge feed by my DT by gravity or have it go through the sump first and feed by the return pump. Im trying to work out my tank plumbing. Thanks

Sisterlimonpot · 09/08/2009, 12:40 PM

How do you have it set up? are you going to have the fuge above the DT and have the sump below the DT? My set up is kinda unorthodox due to the fact that mu fuge is above the DT and my sump is below. So how I have it set up is the fuge is gravity fed into the DT and pumped back up to the fuge from a pump in the DT dorso. then water is gravity fed from the DT to the sump and from the sump it's punped back into the DT.

Sisterlimonpot · 09/08/2009, 12:45 PM

The only problem that I had to overcome is micro bubbles from the fuge into the DT which I made a series of different size tubes that sit in the DT that acts as a bubble trap, and the other (which really wasn't a proble more of a concern) is the sump is the final resting place for all that water if the tank loses power so you have to make sure the sump can handle all the water.

tat2shawn · 09/08/2009, 12:48 PM

Ok sorry about not clarifying. Nothing is set up YET. The DT is going to be on the 1st floor and the sump(50gal) and fuge(29gal) are going below it in the basement.
So if the refuge is gravity feed by the DT it can be higher than the sump with a standpipe to keep a constant water level and drain by gravity to the sump. Would this be best?

Sisterlimonpot · 09/08/2009, 12:49 PM

That would work just fine.

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 06:16 PM

Sorry for Hijacking this thread, but Im thinking of doind a simmular thing, setting up a remote refuge. But I think that the full overflow might be too much flow through the refuge. What I am thinking of doing is. Teeing off the overflow to supply the refuge. Then using an overflow to drain the refuge after the skimmer.

(not to scale)

What do you guys think?

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 06:24 PM

Sorry forgot to mention, the two thick lines on the drain are ball valves to controll the flow.

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 06:28 PM

tat2shawn I wish I could put my sump in the basement that would make plumbing so much easier. Hope this helps. Good luck.

tat2shawn · 09/08/2009, 08:43 PM

Sisterlimonpot, Thanks for your input on this.

Wrobel278, This is pretty much what i was looking at doing using a ball valve to control the flow, as the fuge doesn't need a ton of flow. Does anyone know about how much flow a fuge needs?
Also I see you have it returned to your sump after the skimmer. Why not before it? Or maybe it does not matter.
I need as much info as i can get before I start to glue pvc pipes together!!!

Sychobunny21 · 09/08/2009, 09:06 PM

If you drain the fuge into the skimmer compartment the pods will get sucked out in the nog instead of feeding your tank.

tat2shawn · 09/08/2009, 09:09 PM

Sychobunny21, Thanks I wasnt thinking too clearly on that one.
Note to self, feed the tank not the skimmer!

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 09:48 PM

Yes feeding the tank is the goal. But before you start to glue the plubbing remember that you dont want to restrict the total overflow. That is the reason for the tee in the line. I will only use one of the ball valves, depending on whitch way the water wants to travel first. The other will stay open.

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 09:54 PM

Ohh and the sump will receive the majority of the flow and only a small portion will go into the refuge. Not shure what the flow to the refuge should be, but i will play with that when it is all set up.

tat2shawn · 09/08/2009, 09:58 PM

Wont you only need one ball valve after the tee?
When you start to restrict the flow to the sump it will start to back up and flow to the refuge with out really restricting the water flow it will just find its path of least resistance. But as always I could be wrong..LOL

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 10:09 PM

Yes you are most likely correct. But Im not sure how exactly Im going to run the plumbing yet, and which will be the less restricting route. So i figured if i use two control valves, Im safe either way.

Wrobel278 · 09/08/2009, 10:20 PM

LOL BTW I made that drawing after I read your post. It was easier to draw than explain, it was all in my head before that. I was probably overthinking it, now that I look at it again I see what you are saying. Jusk overkill I guess.

Sisterlimonpot · 09/09/2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wrobel278
Yes you are most likely correct. But Im not sure how exactly Im going to run the plumbing yet, and which will be the less restricting route. So i figured if i use two control valves, Im safe either way.

If you’re going to set your system up like in the drawing then you'll want the ball valve after the tee that goes into the sump that is the path of least resistance. Once you restrict that ball valve it's going to compensate by flowing through the fuge.

Quote:

Originally posted by tat2shawn
Does anyone know about how much flow a fuge needs?

It all depends about what you put in your fuge. If you’re going to use it for macro algae like cheato than you'll want high flow, if you are using it as pod population than you'll want slow flow.... so what are you planning to use the fuge for?

tat2shawn · 09/09/2009, 08:35 PM

Well I haven't totally figured that out yet. I do know that ill be setting one up though. Figured it cant hurt anything to have more water volume.
Im going to have a mixed reef I would like to eventually keep all kinds of corals. I would like to have about an inch and a half of substrate in the dt and use a rdsb. How much of a rdsb area would be sufficient for a 90 gal tank?
Love the idea of growing cheato and a place to grow pods. How do i set that up? Can I put the cheato in a sump compartment?
Thanks guys for all your help.

Sisterlimonpot · 09/09/2009, 08:57 PM

As long as you have light you can put the chaeto anywhere. (I know it goes without saying but..)Just make sure it doesn't get sucked up into return pump. As for a RDSB... I'm of the opinion that unless you have the same or bigger footprint of your display tank a RDSB in a small refuge isn't going to do much for removing nitrate. (but I am biased to the use of DSB)

badwrasse · 09/09/2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sychobunny21
If you drain the fuge into the skimmer compartment the pods will get sucked out in the nog instead of feeding your tank.

where the refuge dumps into the sump in the sketch is not a problem at all as long as micro bubbles are minimal. and flow for a refuge is like 3-5x's volume of DT I think might want to double check me on this but I think I'm close.

Sisterlimonpot · 09/09/2009, 09:18 PM

Yeah I would put the return from the fuge close the the other return for the DT.

tat2shawn · 09/14/2009, 12:14 PM

If I am going to have a separate fuge tank (29 gal), Is it necessary to have a third compartment in the sump (50 gal)? Or is it better to have a third section for some live rock or something else in the future. Any recommendations would be helpful as I plan to go have my glass baffles cut sometime soon.
Also I will be running a mag 24 for the return pump. is there a minimum area for the return section? It will be doing about 900 gph back to the 90 gal DT.

Sisterlimonpot · 09/14/2009, 12:38 PM

That's all preference You can add the section or not. as far as the mag 24 that seems a bit too much for a 90

tat2shawn · 09/14/2009, 12:46 PM

does it seem like alot if the sump is going in the basement? Should be about 900 gph after head loss. Plus I can tee it back to the sump if need be. What are your thoughts?

Sisterlimonpot · 09/14/2009, 12:52 PM

You can do that. The only drawback I would have is that mag pumps are really not that energy efficient and if you can do the same thing with another (more energy efficient or lower # mag) pump you will be better off in the long run.

09/08/2009, 11:57 AM	#1
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	refuge Q What will be best to have my refuge feed by my DT by gravity or have it go through the sump first and feed by the return pump. Im trying to work out my tank plumbing. Thanks

09/08/2009, 12:40 PM	#2
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	How do you have it set up? are you going to have the fuge above the DT and have the sump below the DT? My set up is kinda unorthodox due to the fact that mu fuge is above the DT and my sump is below. So how I have it set up is the fuge is gravity fed into the DT and pumped back up to the fuge from a pump in the DT dorso. then water is gravity fed from the DT to the sump and from the sump it's punped back into the DT. __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

09/08/2009, 12:45 PM	#3
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	The only problem that I had to overcome is micro bubbles from the fuge into the DT which I made a series of different size tubes that sit in the DT that acts as a bubble trap, and the other (which really wasn't a proble more of a concern) is the sump is the final resting place for all that water if the tank loses power so you have to make sure the sump can handle all the water. __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

09/08/2009, 12:48 PM	#4
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	Ok sorry about not clarifying. Nothing is set up YET. The DT is going to be on the 1st floor and the sump(50gal) and fuge(29gal) are going below it in the basement. So if the refuge is gravity feed by the DT it can be higher than the sump with a standpipe to keep a constant water level and drain by gravity to the sump. Would this be best? __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/08/2009, 12:49 PM	#5
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	That would work just fine. __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

09/08/2009, 06:16 PM	#6
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	Sorry for Hijacking this thread, but Im thinking of doind a simmular thing, setting up a remote refuge. But I think that the full overflow might be too much flow through the refuge. What I am thinking of doing is. Teeing off the overflow to supply the refuge. Then using an overflow to drain the refuge after the skimmer. (not to scale) What do you guys think?

09/08/2009, 06:24 PM	#7
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	Sorry forgot to mention, the two thick lines on the drain are ball valves to controll the flow.

09/08/2009, 06:28 PM	#8
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	tat2shawn I wish I could put my sump in the basement that would make plumbing so much easier. Hope this helps. Good luck.

09/08/2009, 08:43 PM	#9
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	Sisterlimonpot, Thanks for your input on this. Wrobel278, This is pretty much what i was looking at doing using a ball valve to control the flow, as the fuge doesn't need a ton of flow. Does anyone know about how much flow a fuge needs? Also I see you have it returned to your sump after the skimmer. Why not before it? Or maybe it does not matter. I need as much info as i can get before I start to glue pvc pipes together!!! __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/08/2009, 09:06 PM	#10
Sychobunny21 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Homestead, FL Posts: 77	If you drain the fuge into the skimmer compartment the pods will get sucked out in the nog instead of feeding your tank.

09/08/2009, 09:09 PM	#11
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	Sychobunny21, Thanks I wasnt thinking too clearly on that one. Note to self, feed the tank not the skimmer! __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/08/2009, 09:48 PM	#12
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	Yes feeding the tank is the goal. But before you start to glue the plubbing remember that you dont want to restrict the total overflow. That is the reason for the tee in the line. I will only use one of the ball valves, depending on whitch way the water wants to travel first. The other will stay open.

09/08/2009, 09:54 PM	#13
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	Ohh and the sump will receive the majority of the flow and only a small portion will go into the refuge. Not shure what the flow to the refuge should be, but i will play with that when it is all set up.

09/08/2009, 09:58 PM	#14
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	Wont you only need one ball valve after the tee? When you start to restrict the flow to the sump it will start to back up and flow to the refuge with out really restricting the water flow it will just find its path of least resistance. But as always I could be wrong..LOL __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/08/2009, 10:09 PM	#15
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	Yes you are most likely correct. But Im not sure how exactly Im going to run the plumbing yet, and which will be the less restricting route. So i figured if i use two control valves, Im safe either way.

09/08/2009, 10:20 PM	#16
Wrobel278 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Monroe, NJ Posts: 133	LOL BTW I made that drawing after I read your post. It was easier to draw than explain, it was all in my head before that. I was probably overthinking it, now that I look at it again I see what you are saying. Jusk overkill I guess.

09/09/2009, 08:35 PM	#18
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	Well I haven't totally figured that out yet. I do know that ill be setting one up though. Figured it cant hurt anything to have more water volume. Im going to have a mixed reef I would like to eventually keep all kinds of corals. I would like to have about an inch and a half of substrate in the dt and use a rdsb. How much of a rdsb area would be sufficient for a 90 gal tank? Love the idea of growing cheato and a place to grow pods. How do i set that up? Can I put the cheato in a sump compartment? Thanks guys for all your help. __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/09/2009, 08:57 PM	#19
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	As long as you have light you can put the chaeto anywhere. (I know it goes without saying but..)Just make sure it doesn't get sucked up into return pump. As for a RDSB... I'm of the opinion that unless you have the same or bigger footprint of your display tank a RDSB in a small refuge isn't going to do much for removing nitrate. (but I am biased to the use of DSB) __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

09/09/2009, 09:18 PM	#21
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	Yeah I would put the return from the fuge close the the other return for the DT. __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

09/14/2009, 12:14 PM	#22
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	If I am going to have a separate fuge tank (29 gal), Is it necessary to have a third compartment in the sump (50 gal)? Or is it better to have a third section for some live rock or something else in the future. Any recommendations would be helpful as I plan to go have my glass baffles cut sometime soon. Also I will be running a mag 24 for the return pump. is there a minimum area for the return section? It will be doing about 900 gph back to the 90 gal DT. __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/14/2009, 12:38 PM	#23
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	That's all preference You can add the section or not. as far as the mag 24 that seems a bit too much for a 90 __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

09/14/2009, 12:46 PM	#24
tat2shawn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Northeast, PA Posts: 265	does it seem like alot if the sump is going in the basement? Should be about 900 gph after head loss. Plus I can tee it back to the sump if need be. What are your thoughts? __________________ 90 gallon oceanic tech tank, RKE, ASM G-4, 2 Vortech MP-40s 2 250W MH 15k W/ actinic, 70 gallon frag tank Current Tank Info: 90 gallon ocqanic tech tank and a 55

09/14/2009, 12:52 PM	#25
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	You can do that. The only drawback I would have is that mag pumps are really not that energy efficient and if you can do the same thing with another (more energy efficient or lower # mag) pump you will be better off in the long run. __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress