Ball valve to silence overflow?

FSM · 10/15/2009, 05:25 PM

I've got a 75 gallon tank with a corner overflow, 1" bulkhead for the drain. I made a durso standpipe to help with the noise, and it works pretty good. The overflow part makes very little noise, but the output into the sump is still quite loud. There seems to be a lot of air in it still.
Can I use a ball valve to reduce the flow from the drain? That should create a fuller siphon, resulting in less air, correct?

The pump is a quiet one 3000

thanks

Tyler Durden · 10/15/2009, 05:47 PM

I have a fully submerged 1.5" standpipe with a gate valve at the bottom to control the flow. With a 2" back up standpipe just above the water level. You have to have an emergency back up stand pipe when going this route. My overflow is silent. The only noise I hear is the occasional splash of water going down the back up stand pipe.

waldomas · 10/15/2009, 05:50 PM

"Backup standpipe" is the key! I wouldn't restrict the overflow with a valve unless you have a backup standpipe or you don't mind floods.

sfboarders · 10/15/2009, 05:54 PM

Are you talking about the water that drains into the sump? If so, I had that same problem. On the drain side I went from a 1" to a 2" pipe and made a reverse durso. The only thing I can hear now is a lil splashing from my protein skimmer.

luther1200 · 10/15/2009, 06:05 PM

I would really try to find another way. Its recommended that you do not restrict your drainage plumbing.

FSM · 10/15/2009, 06:13 PM

It's a premade acrylic wet/dry sump. The water level is only about 5 inches, there is no way the tank can overflow. The pump could run dry though.

sethd12 · 10/15/2009, 06:48 PM

definitely agree with sfboarders. just use a larger pipe for your overflow going to the sump. that will clear up any noise you might have.

FSM · 10/16/2009, 03:04 PM

I don't see why that would reduce the amount of air going into the sump.

madean · 10/16/2009, 07:53 PM

sfboarders- i was actually thinking about using some plumbing technique and incorporating a sanitary tee like you did but with out the cap and just a longer vent pipe which is what is done in homes. But in homes the vent pipe is ran all the way to the roof and the gurggling sound is not heard nor smelt. Which is a good thing. But I would still hear a muffled sound, I knew about the durso method but never really thought about using it in reverse. Just out of curiousity did the sound decrease at all at the overflow ie gurggling sound like using the durso method at the drain. This method is a little modified (no ball or gate valve to control the water flow in the durso) but definately decreases sound in the sump. Nice work

jmking33 · 10/16/2009, 10:02 PM

If you have a second drainpipe..you could use the herbie method....1 pipe siphon, the 2nd as an overflow/emergency outlet. Thats what I used on mine...its dead silent.

madean · 10/16/2009, 10:42 PM

jmking33- fsm is talking about the effluent portion or the last part of the drain that enters the sump and not the beggining of the drain in the tank. I am not familiar with the herbie method but it sounds like the durso method.

SFeST · 10/16/2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmking33

If you have a second drainpipe..you could use the herbie method....1 pipe siphon, the 2nd as an overflow/emergency outlet. Thats what I used on mine...its dead silent.

This is exactly as I have on mine. I can't stress enough that it is DEAD silent. I use good pumps too, but I hear absolutely no running water at all, anywhere.

But I would never even consider running it this way without the backup drainpipe. Too many bad things can happen.

MplsMan · 10/17/2009, 12:22 AM

i would agree totally with having a back up in case of emergency, i have 4 drains going into my sump in the basement 10' below the tank, i have 2 gate valves on 2 of the 4 lines, they put just enough back pressure on the drain line to silence the back pressure. the other 2 are totally for back up. my sump is also totally silent, i would only consider this with the others as back ups.

madean · 10/17/2009, 12:33 AM

ok guys fsm uses the durso method where the water leaves the tank and enters the overflow. No noise here. The problem is when the water hits the sump. lots of noise here. One solution was to employ a reverse durso method in the sump to reduce the noise of the water hitting the sump. I believe so far sfboarders has been the only one to offer up a solution to the problem and he or she did a great job doing so. Great delivery I wish more people put a tutorial together on utube to show what is being done and how to do it. The message is a little clearer.
luther1200- I kind of have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Traditionally people use the ball or gate valve on the durso, or something that looks like the durso method, to dial in the overflow to make it completely silent. They are basically creating a vacuum for an overflow that is equal to the amount of water that is returned to the tank. All though i agree that this is a bad idea, it can only be a good idea if you employ back ups either 1 or more in case the durso gets clogged. And even then you back ups better be engineered correctly or the pump will run dry. ie bad idea. But sfboarders offers a solution that does not have any flow restrictions. No ball valves or gate valves. The valve in the video is to control the water level in the skimmer and is completely unrelated. The principal IMO is that since the air creates friction, because it needs more air to water ratio to reduce the noise, if it is given more space and a place to escape- the noise will decrease. A 1" line enters 1.5" orifice and then drains into a 2" orifice. You effectively quadroupled the usable space. Thus giving more space for the air to go and creating less friction within the pipe. The air hole drilled into the top provides a space for the air to escape. Now becareful on the size hole drilled. start small and drill bigger. IMO what size pipe the drain is double it for the size sanitary tee needed, atleast.

MplsMan · 10/17/2009, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madean

ok guys fsm uses the durso method where the water leaves the tank and enters the overflow. No noise here. The problem is when the water hits the sump. lots of noise here. One solution was to employ a reverse durso method in the sump to reduce the noise of the water hitting the sump. I believe so far sfboarders has been the only one to offer up a solution to the problem and he or she did a great job doing so. Great delivery I wish more people put a tutorial together on utube to show what is being done and how to do it. The message is a little clearer.
luther1200- I kind of have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Traditionally people use the ball or gate valve on the durso, or something that looks like the durso method, to dial in the overflow to make it completely silent. They are basically creating a vacuum for an overflow that is equal to the amount of water that is returned to the tank. All though i agree that this is a bad idea, it can only be a good idea if you employ back ups either 1 or more in case the durso gets clogged. And even then you back ups better be engineered correctly or the pump will run dry. ie bad idea. But sfboarders offers a solution that does not have any flow restrictions. No ball valves or gate valves. The valve in the video is to control the water level in the skimmer and is completely unrelated. The principal IMO is that since the air creates friction, because it needs more air to water ratio to reduce the noise, if it is given more space and a place to escape- the noise will decrease. A 1" line enters 1.5" orifice and then drains into a 2" orifice. You effectively quadroupled the usable space. Thus giving more space for the air to go and creating less friction within the pipe. The air hole drilled into the top provides a space for the air to escape. Now becareful on the size hole drilled. start small and drill bigger. IMO what size pipe the drain is double it for the size sanitary tee needed, atleast.

this does sound like a very good ides how ever i haven't tried it to really see the difference.

jmking33 · 10/17/2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madean

jmking33- fsm is talking about the effluent portion or the last part of the drain that enters the sump and not the beggining of the drain in the tank. I am not familiar with the herbie method but it sounds like the durso method.

the herbie method helps big time with the exiting water. obviously pipe size and the distance the water is falling after leaving the pipe would all contribute to possible water noise.

10/15/2009, 05:25 PM	#1
FSM Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 10	Ball valve to silence overflow? I've got a 75 gallon tank with a corner overflow, 1" bulkhead for the drain. I made a durso standpipe to help with the noise, and it works pretty good. The overflow part makes very little noise, but the output into the sump is still quite loud. There seems to be a lot of air in it still. Can I use a ball valve to reduce the flow from the drain? That should create a fuller siphon, resulting in less air, correct? The pump is a quiet one 3000 thanks

10/15/2009, 06:05 PM	#5
luther1200 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NJ, shore Posts: 4,376	I would really try to find another way. Its recommended that you do not restrict your drainage plumbing. __________________ Matt, 65G reef tank Current Tank Info: 65g reef, mix of sps, lps, few softies. Hoping to upgrade within the year.

10/15/2009, 06:48 PM	#7
sethd12 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 941	definitely agree with sfboarders. just use a larger pipe for your overflow going to the sump. that will clear up any noise you might have. __________________ -500 gallon mixed reef

10/15/2009, 05:47 PM	#2
Tyler Durden Moved On Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Southern California Posts: 113	I have a fully submerged 1.5" standpipe with a gate valve at the bottom to control the flow. With a 2" back up standpipe just above the water level. You have to have an emergency back up stand pipe when going this route. My overflow is silent. The only noise I hear is the occasional splash of water going down the back up stand pipe.

10/15/2009, 05:50 PM	#3
waldomas Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: south central Pa. Posts: 761	"Backup standpipe" is the key! I wouldn't restrict the overflow with a valve unless you have a backup standpipe or you don't mind floods.

10/15/2009, 05:54 PM	#4
sfboarders Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: 808 State Posts: 1,356	Are you talking about the water that drains into the sump? If so, I had that same problem. On the drain side I went from a 1" to a 2" pipe and made a reverse durso. The only thing I can hear now is a lil splashing from my protein skimmer.

10/15/2009, 06:13 PM	#6
FSM Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 10	It's a premade acrylic wet/dry sump. The water level is only about 5 inches, there is no way the tank can overflow. The pump could run dry though.

10/16/2009, 03:04 PM	#8
FSM Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 10	I don't see why that would reduce the amount of air going into the sump.

10/16/2009, 07:53 PM	#9
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	sfboarders- i was actually thinking about using some plumbing technique and incorporating a sanitary tee like you did but with out the cap and just a longer vent pipe which is what is done in homes. But in homes the vent pipe is ran all the way to the roof and the gurggling sound is not heard nor smelt. Which is a good thing. But I would still hear a muffled sound, I knew about the durso method but never really thought about using it in reverse. Just out of curiousity did the sound decrease at all at the overflow ie gurggling sound like using the durso method at the drain. This method is a little modified (no ball or gate valve to control the water flow in the durso) but definately decreases sound in the sump. Nice work

10/16/2009, 10:02 PM	#10
jmking33 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: orlando,FL Posts: 1,652	If you have a second drainpipe..you could use the herbie method....1 pipe siphon, the 2nd as an overflow/emergency outlet. Thats what I used on mine...its dead silent.

10/16/2009, 10:42 PM	#11
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	jmking33- fsm is talking about the effluent portion or the last part of the drain that enters the sump and not the beggining of the drain in the tank. I am not familiar with the herbie method but it sounds like the durso method.

10/17/2009, 12:22 AM	#13
MplsMan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Mpls,Mn Posts: 540	i would agree totally with having a back up in case of emergency, i have 4 drains going into my sump in the basement 10' below the tank, i have 2 gate valves on 2 of the 4 lines, they put just enough back pressure on the drain line to silence the back pressure. the other 2 are totally for back up. my sump is also totally silent, i would only consider this with the others as back ups.

10/17/2009, 12:33 AM	#14
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	ok guys fsm uses the durso method where the water leaves the tank and enters the overflow. No noise here. The problem is when the water hits the sump. lots of noise here. One solution was to employ a reverse durso method in the sump to reduce the noise of the water hitting the sump. I believe so far sfboarders has been the only one to offer up a solution to the problem and he or she did a great job doing so. Great delivery I wish more people put a tutorial together on utube to show what is being done and how to do it. The message is a little clearer. luther1200- I kind of have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Traditionally people use the ball or gate valve on the durso, or something that looks like the durso method, to dial in the overflow to make it completely silent. They are basically creating a vacuum for an overflow that is equal to the amount of water that is returned to the tank. All though i agree that this is a bad idea, it can only be a good idea if you employ back ups either 1 or more in case the durso gets clogged. And even then you back ups better be engineered correctly or the pump will run dry. ie bad idea. But sfboarders offers a solution that does not have any flow restrictions. No ball valves or gate valves. The valve in the video is to control the water level in the skimmer and is completely unrelated. The principal IMO is that since the air creates friction, because it needs more air to water ratio to reduce the noise, if it is given more space and a place to escape- the noise will decrease. A 1" line enters 1.5" orifice and then drains into a 2" orifice. You effectively quadroupled the usable space. Thus giving more space for the air to go and creating less friction within the pipe. The air hole drilled into the top provides a space for the air to escape. Now becareful on the size hole drilled. start small and drill bigger. IMO what size pipe the drain is double it for the size sanitary tee needed, atleast.