(RDSB)Remote Deep Sand Bed questions. - Page 2

madean · 10/01/2009, 11:10 PM

inappropriate yes but very nice

henrystyle · 10/02/2009, 09:50 AM

Here is an excellent read on deep sand beds. You guys are missing out on another bonus of a dsb. It can also supply your reef tank with unlimited food. This is the purpose placing it after the skimmer or whatever mechanical filtration that you may have so all the micro fauna-plankton, pods can return to the tank through the return pump. (another reason why I do not use filter socks)

http://www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html

4-6 inches high is all you need.....To the person who started this thread, your original and 2nd plan is way overkill. Such a huge DSB is not needed....Mangroves aren't needed either. Mangroves need light. With lights on all the nocturnal critters will not come out..These critters like to feed and multiply in the darkness.
With a properly seeded sand bed the critters will take care of all the sand stirring. I never read anything about a DSB having to be covered. Dont see the purpose in doing that. Don't worry about Detritus collecting on the DSB. Thats what the critters are for....The article above is truly a good read....

read up...

madean · 10/02/2009, 08:57 PM

henrystyle thank you for the article- it was very informative on a what a DSB is and how it acts. It gives great illustrations on what goes on in a DSB. Unfortunately there is only a small paragraph in the first article about a RDSB which is what westernreefer proposed in the first place to talk about. But westernreefer i think is confusing a dsb with a rdsb which run and react differently and trying to get both benefits by conbining them. A dsb which has critters eating semi large and small organic matter, stirring the sand ect (read the first article, it explains this well) acts differnetly then a rdsb. You want slower water running over this sand bed. You want some of the organic matter to fall on the sand to feed the critters. In a rdsb-well lets stop calling it rdsb for the sake of this conversation, and lets call it the bucket method. You can take the sand out of your display and put it into another tank to be filled to 4-6", and technically it can be called a rdsb. But basically you are attaching two tanks together for added filtration. Most of the research that I have conducted on this topic yields that when you type in "RDSB" in a search engine the bucket method pops up. The bucket method is preferably taking a 5 gallon bucket (square being easier to attach a bulkhead to) and filling it with 40-60 lbs of sand and running water across the top at a rate that solids stay suspended and DO NOT settle. This method relies on bacteria and not critters to reduce nitrates. THIS IS DIRECTLY FROM THE ARTICLE
3. The difference between normal DSB's and BUCKET DSB's...Do 'NOT' confuse the two, they are very different beasts. A bucket DSB is a 'chemical' filter that works solely on the principle of breaking down dissolved nutrients such as Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate to free nitrogen gas and extremely fine organic matter that is too small to be mechanically filtered from the incoming water column. It does not rely on a critter population to handle solid matter and keep the bed loose. In the case of bucket DSB's, the bed is run remotely from the main sump system in a separate container or tank and is fed only pre-filtered water that has had the vast majority of solid particulates removed. Usually by way of a 5micron filter sock or other such fine filter material on the input side. The main aim here is to let the bed function at a bacterial level, allowing it to work chemically without the hindrance of dealing with solid matter breakdown. The filtering effectively stops particulates entering the area which would otherwise clog the bed over time without the presence of a critter population to deal with it. It has commonly been the case that people confuse these two methods and start applying the rules of one to the other. The simple fact is that you cant have your cake and eat it all the time. Suddenly cutting off the supply of solid food to an existing critter based DSB will probably herald disastrous results as the critter population starves and dies back leaving the bed clogged with dead or decaying matter and no way of dealing with it. whereas a Bucket DSB based system relies on diverting solid matter handling to alternate routes, such as the filter on the input, and more reliance on heavy skimming to take up the surplus. Neither method is wrong, nor right, They simply work in different ways and should be treated as such.
Sorry this is so long but I think each person needs to decide which route they would like to go to achieve a certain goal. Dont confuse the two and try not to infuse them together. Again henrystyle thank you for posting a great article, which illistrates the differnces of the two set ups.

henrystyle · 10/02/2009, 09:26 PM

In my opinion I prefer the critter based DSB...Theres just to many bonuses with that method. Both methods are similar. The big difference is that 1 has critters and the other doesn't. I plan on adding a DSB to my future tank plans....To me it just makes to much sense. A small dsb can service a large tank..

madean · 10/02/2009, 09:40 PM

probably more benefits to the dsb compared to the rdsb, but also depends on your application. For me, the rdsb suites me better. I have a BB frag tank and limited room where the bucket style rdsb will IMO work better for me. Just depends on what your setting up and what you have to work with.

henrystyle · 10/02/2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madean

probably more benefits to the dsb compared to the rdsb, but also depends on your application. For me, the rdsb suites me better. I have a BB frag tank and limited room where the bucket style rdsb will IMO work better for me. Just depends on what your setting up and what you have to work with.

I hear ya. I plan on putting mine in a nice size sump. Thinking of plumbing the overflow directly into the skimmer. Logic being all of the water will get skimmed, not just some water from the sump...Water will flow over the dsb right to the return pump... A little carbon/GFO reactor, calcium reactor and thats it....Keeping it simple.

madean · 10/02/2009, 11:21 PM

sounds good to me

moondoggy4 · 10/02/2009, 11:44 PM

tagging along great read so far

aquainas · 10/10/2009, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henrystyle

I hear ya. I plan on putting mine in a nice size sump. Thinking of plumbing the overflow directly into the skimmer. Logic being all of the water will get skimmed, not just some water from the sump...Water will flow over the dsb right to the return pump... A little carbon/GFO reactor, calcium reactor and thats it....Keeping it simple.

I have done exactly this and I believe it's the way to go click the link to my build thread if you'd like to see a pic:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=337

henrystyle · 10/10/2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquainas

I have done exactly this and I believe it's the way to go click the link to my build thread if you'd like to see a pic:http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=337

Thats a bad *** setup you have there. What size is your overflow line going into the skimmer? 1/2", 3/4", 1"?

SkyPapa · 10/10/2009, 01:01 PM

I run a RDSB in a IO bucket with play sand from HD. It is fed from the sump by a magnum 350 with carbon.
It has been going for about 5 years with no maintenance.
My NO3 runs 1-2 ppm.
I still have my share of algaes.

madean · 10/10/2009, 11:06 PM

Thank you for posting your experience. I keep going back and forth on which style to do. I cut a 100 gallon tank horizontally in half and I am using it as a sump. I then divided the new tank in half to be filters for two different tanks. The stand was built to accomodate 2 3' x 3' frag tanks. The idea was to have two seperate filters so that I would not have to deal with the chemical warfare hindering growth of different types of corals. But now wondering if to combine the filter as one and have a large 30" x 18" dsb to grow goodies to help possibly feed the coral and reduce the nitrates. Decisions decisions.

madean · 10/10/2009, 11:08 PM

Skypapa- have u tested your phosphate level to see if your share of "algaes" is a spawn of the level of phosphates in the tank.

SkyPapa · 10/11/2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madean

Skypapa- have u tested your phosphate level to see if your share of "algaes" is a spawn of the level of phosphates in the tank.

Yep, phosphates are undetectable on my salifert kit.
That means the phos is less than about .003 and some is locked in the algae.
I manually remove what i can and run gfo.
I don't really have hair algae but I can barely keep up with the different types of bubble algae.

Yea, I know, emerald crabs. They help some. My foxface eats some too.

henrystyle · 01/08/2010, 05:15 AM

Anyone know how to calculate the size of a RDSB in relation to tank size? I am building a 120 gallon tank. 48x24x24. I am currently trying to design my sump as well. I would like to know how much space is needed for the RDSB section I am putting in my sump for it to be beneficial to my tank. I know the depth needed. Trying to figure out the L and W that it should be. (really just the length)

Western_reefer · 01/08/2010, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henrystyle

Anyone know how to calculate the size of a RDSB in relation to tank size? I am building a 120 gallon tank. 48x24x24. I am currently trying to design my sump as well. I would like to know how much space is needed for the RDSB section I am putting in my sump for it to be beneficial to my tank. I know the depth needed. Trying to figure out the L and W that it should be. (really just the length)

Just use a 5 gallon bucket hooked up to your sump? Its much easier to take out if needed.

henrystyle · 01/08/2010, 12:50 PM

No room for a 5 gallon bucket..Gotta incorporate it into the sump design..

foreverreef · 01/08/2010, 01:33 PM

wait how much flow do you have into the bucket? and is there a pic of how you have it plumbed? does the water just run over the top of the sand? or is there 4-5" of water on the sand and then flows off? sorry for the questions it that i am interested in this but i really canot grasp this concept in my mind..

bergzy · 01/08/2010, 02:37 PM

here is the ongoing thread on remote dsb's in advanced topics:

part I:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=595109

Part II:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=896352

bergzy · 01/08/2010, 02:42 PM

here is the start of the ongoing conversation of remote dsb's:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=595109

10/02/2009, 09:50 AM	#27
henrystyle Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Stroudsburg, Pa Posts: 668	Here is an excellent read on deep sand beds. You guys are missing out on another bonus of a dsb. It can also supply your reef tank with unlimited food. This is the purpose placing it after the skimmer or whatever mechanical filtration that you may have so all the micro fauna-plankton, pods can return to the tank through the return pump. (another reason why I do not use filter socks) http://www.reef-eden.net/DSBs.htm http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html 4-6 inches high is all you need.....To the person who started this thread, your original and 2nd plan is way overkill. Such a huge DSB is not needed....Mangroves aren't needed either. Mangroves need light. With lights on all the nocturnal critters will not come out..These critters like to feed and multiply in the darkness. With a properly seeded sand bed the critters will take care of all the sand stirring. I never read anything about a DSB having to be covered. Dont see the purpose in doing that. Don't worry about Detritus collecting on the DSB. Thats what the critters are for....The article above is truly a good read.... read up... __________________ HENRYSTYLE - That Henry Guy Current Tank Info: 30g frag tank/120g sps dominant reef Last edited by henrystyle; 10/02/2009 at 10:04 AM.

10/02/2009, 09:26 PM	#29
henrystyle Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Stroudsburg, Pa Posts: 668	In my opinion I prefer the critter based DSB...Theres just to many bonuses with that method. Both methods are similar. The big difference is that 1 has critters and the other doesn't. I plan on adding a DSB to my future tank plans....To me it just makes to much sense. A small dsb can service a large tank.. __________________ HENRYSTYLE - That Henry Guy Current Tank Info: 30g frag tank/120g sps dominant reef

01/08/2010, 05:15 AM	#40
henrystyle Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Stroudsburg, Pa Posts: 668	Anyone know how to calculate the size of a RDSB in relation to tank size? I am building a 120 gallon tank. 48x24x24. I am currently trying to design my sump as well. I would like to know how much space is needed for the RDSB section I am putting in my sump for it to be beneficial to my tank. I know the depth needed. Trying to figure out the L and W that it should be. (really just the length) __________________ HENRYSTYLE - That Henry Guy Current Tank Info: 30g frag tank/120g sps dominant reef Last edited by henrystyle; 01/08/2010 at 05:36 AM.

01/08/2010, 12:50 PM	#42
henrystyle Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: East Stroudsburg, Pa Posts: 668	No room for a 5 gallon bucket..Gotta incorporate it into the sump design.. __________________ HENRYSTYLE - That Henry Guy Current Tank Info: 30g frag tank/120g sps dominant reef

01/08/2010, 02:37 PM	#44
bergzy Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: OC CA USA Posts: 5,299	here is the ongoing thread on remote dsb's in advanced topics: part I: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=595109 Part II: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=896352 __________________ The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it. H.L. Mencken Ben. Current Tank Info: 180g sps, 90g cube clam biotope.

10/01/2009, 11:10 PM	#26
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	inappropriate yes but very nice

10/02/2009, 08:57 PM	#28
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	henrystyle thank you for the article- it was very informative on a what a DSB is and how it acts. It gives great illustrations on what goes on in a DSB. Unfortunately there is only a small paragraph in the first article about a RDSB which is what westernreefer proposed in the first place to talk about. But westernreefer i think is confusing a dsb with a rdsb which run and react differently and trying to get both benefits by conbining them. A dsb which has critters eating semi large and small organic matter, stirring the sand ect (read the first article, it explains this well) acts differnetly then a rdsb. You want slower water running over this sand bed. You want some of the organic matter to fall on the sand to feed the critters. In a rdsb-well lets stop calling it rdsb for the sake of this conversation, and lets call it the bucket method. You can take the sand out of your display and put it into another tank to be filled to 4-6", and technically it can be called a rdsb. But basically you are attaching two tanks together for added filtration. Most of the research that I have conducted on this topic yields that when you type in "RDSB" in a search engine the bucket method pops up. The bucket method is preferably taking a 5 gallon bucket (square being easier to attach a bulkhead to) and filling it with 40-60 lbs of sand and running water across the top at a rate that solids stay suspended and DO NOT settle. This method relies on bacteria and not critters to reduce nitrates. THIS IS DIRECTLY FROM THE ARTICLE 3. The difference between normal DSB's and BUCKET DSB's...Do 'NOT' confuse the two, they are very different beasts. A bucket DSB is a 'chemical' filter that works solely on the principle of breaking down dissolved nutrients such as Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate to free nitrogen gas and extremely fine organic matter that is too small to be mechanically filtered from the incoming water column. It does not rely on a critter population to handle solid matter and keep the bed loose. In the case of bucket DSB's, the bed is run remotely from the main sump system in a separate container or tank and is fed only pre-filtered water that has had the vast majority of solid particulates removed. Usually by way of a 5micron filter sock or other such fine filter material on the input side. The main aim here is to let the bed function at a bacterial level, allowing it to work chemically without the hindrance of dealing with solid matter breakdown. The filtering effectively stops particulates entering the area which would otherwise clog the bed over time without the presence of a critter population to deal with it. It has commonly been the case that people confuse these two methods and start applying the rules of one to the other. The simple fact is that you cant have your cake and eat it all the time. Suddenly cutting off the supply of solid food to an existing critter based DSB will probably herald disastrous results as the critter population starves and dies back leaving the bed clogged with dead or decaying matter and no way of dealing with it. whereas a Bucket DSB based system relies on diverting solid matter handling to alternate routes, such as the filter on the input, and more reliance on heavy skimming to take up the surplus. Neither method is wrong, nor right, They simply work in different ways and should be treated as such. Sorry this is so long but I think each person needs to decide which route they would like to go to achieve a certain goal. Dont confuse the two and try not to infuse them together. Again henrystyle thank you for posting a great article, which illistrates the differnces of the two set ups.

10/02/2009, 09:40 PM	#30
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	probably more benefits to the dsb compared to the rdsb, but also depends on your application. For me, the rdsb suites me better. I have a BB frag tank and limited room where the bucket style rdsb will IMO work better for me. Just depends on what your setting up and what you have to work with.

10/02/2009, 11:21 PM	#32
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	sounds good to me

10/02/2009, 11:44 PM	#33
moondoggy4 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: menifee So cal Posts: 11,042	tagging along great read so far

10/10/2009, 01:01 PM	#36
SkyPapa Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Central Florida Posts: 994	I run a RDSB in a IO bucket with play sand from HD. It is fed from the sump by a magnum 350 with carbon. It has been going for about 5 years with no maintenance. My NO3 runs 1-2 ppm. I still have my share of algaes.

10/10/2009, 11:06 PM	#37
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	Thank you for posting your experience. I keep going back and forth on which style to do. I cut a 100 gallon tank horizontally in half and I am using it as a sump. I then divided the new tank in half to be filters for two different tanks. The stand was built to accomodate 2 3' x 3' frag tanks. The idea was to have two seperate filters so that I would not have to deal with the chemical warfare hindering growth of different types of corals. But now wondering if to combine the filter as one and have a large 30" x 18" dsb to grow goodies to help possibly feed the coral and reduce the nitrates. Decisions decisions.

10/10/2009, 11:08 PM	#38
madean Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 994	Skypapa- have u tested your phosphate level to see if your share of "algaes" is a spawn of the level of phosphates in the tank.

01/08/2010, 01:33 PM	#43
foreverreef Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Underwater Posts: 309	wait how much flow do you have into the bucket? and is there a pic of how you have it plumbed? does the water just run over the top of the sand? or is there 4-5" of water on the sand and then flows off? sorry for the questions it that i am interested in this but i really canot grasp this concept in my mind..

01/08/2010, 02:42 PM	#45
bergzy Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: OC CA USA Posts: 5,299	here is the start of the ongoing conversation of remote dsb's: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=595109 __________________ The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it. H.L. Mencken Ben. Current Tank Info: 180g sps, 90g cube clam biotope.