How is my cycle going to work?

snewcrash · 01/13/2010, 07:43 AM

I have a 75 gallon tank with a 55 gallon sump. I have 50 pounds of marco dry rock. I am going to get 25 pounds of live rock. The live rock will be transported from a local established tank, in water the entire time (except during the transfer out of the tank into a bucket). I'll also be getting a few cups of sand from the tank and transporting it in the same manner.

Will I experience a normal cycle since the live rock is only going to be out of water for a minute at most? How long until I can add fish?

sedor · 01/13/2010, 07:48 AM

No, you need to add ammonia in order to get the cycle started. This can be done in 1 of 3 ways:

1) Get a couple large RAW shrimp from the grocery store seafood counter and put them either in the sand or in a pantyhose with the toe cut off. This is by far the most popular method.

2) You could feed the tank a couple pinches of food everyday.

3) Use liquid ammonia and dose the tank daily until you see the levels go up.

Either way you choose, the goal is to get ammonia into the system, which in turn will help get the bacteria cultures started converting the ammonia into nitrite, and then later into nitrate. When your ammonia goes up and then down, followed by the nitrite, followed by the nitrate your cycle will be done. You will probably be left with nitrates in your system and at that point you'll do a water change and add your first fish.

Chiefsurfer · 01/13/2010, 07:50 AM

most-likely, keeping the water fairly heated(unless traveling will keep heat loss at almost nothing) you will experience little to no cycle. The LR should have bacteria, and even if there is die-off, it should be eaten by the bacteria pretty quickly. I would still give it like 2 weeks, as you will still probably go through the algae cycles. Also, when adding fish, and/or other stuff, do it VERY slow, as your colony will only be on 1/3 of your rock. So it will have to come up to the correct bioload.

^As to sedor's comment:

I do not feel he has to force a cycle with anything. The rock will be wet the whole time, and if the tank it is coming from has fish it will have a fairly large colony of bacteria. It will just have to grow with each fish addition. If you want to throw a raw shrimp in for 2-3 days, and measure your ammonia to make sure the bacteria survived, that is possible, but you do not have to force a full cycle.

sowellj · 01/13/2010, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedor

No, you need to add ammonia in order to get the cycle started. This can be done in 1 of 3 ways:

1) Get a couple large RAW shrimp from the grocery store seafood counter and put them either in the sand or in a pantyhose with the toe cut off. This is by far the most popular method.

2) You could feed the tank a couple pinches of food everyday.

3) Use liquid ammonia and dose the tank daily until you see the levels go up.

Either way you choose, the goal is to get ammonia into the system, which in turn will help get the bacteria cultures started converting the ammonia into nitrite, and then later into nitrate. When your ammonia goes up and then down, followed by the nitrite, followed by the nitrate your cycle will be done. You will probably be left with nitrates in your system and at that point you'll do a water change and add your first fish.

No disrespect here, but there is absolutely no reason to do any of the above if he is seeding with live rock. To the OP, It is difficult to say what your cycle will look like and you may not see much of one, given that you will minimal die off if the live rock you are seeding with is transported locally.

snewcrash · 01/13/2010, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefsurfer

most-likely, keeping the water fairly heated(unless traveling will keep heat loss at almost nothing) you will experience little to no cycle. The LR should have bacteria, and even if there is die-off, it should be eaten by the bacteria pretty quickly. I would still give it like 2 weeks, as you will still probably go through the algae cycles. Also, when adding fish, and/or other stuff, do it VERY slow, as your colony will only be on 1/3 of your rock. So it will have to come up to the correct bioload.

I'm going to add fish extremely slowly as the live rock seeds the rest of the dry rock. So you're saying that I don't need to introduce ammonia? The rock will be transported very quickly and I expect minimal loss of temperature.

sedor · 01/13/2010, 08:03 AM

But what harm is adding a shrimp or two? Its a tried and true method and although not necessary with LR, its a good way for someone new to know they are doing things right.

Chiefsurfer · 01/13/2010, 08:06 AM

ammonia is created by dead/rotting organic matter. Without any death, you should have no natural cycle. You CAN induce a cycle by adding more ammonia, but you shouldn't need to.

Bacteria colonies will expand/grow and then die off until they reach the optimal size to consume whatever amount of ammonia is normally produced in your tank. It's like any other form of wildlife, food is the ultimate limiting factor. Sometimes because of a warm winter, or for some reason, larger than normal amounts of food, you will get booms in certain wildlife populations(good examples are deer and bear). Then over the course of a specific time, those colonies will reduce in size, until the bacteria have reached the exact right size to be sustained, no more, no less, by the ammount of ammonia that is produced in your tank. Because when getting a full cycle, the colony builds up pretty high, and therefore the bacteria will have a big colony, and will be able to consume all the ammonia produce by new introductions to the tank. When you have an already established colony of bacteria, and it may be small(only using 1/3 your LR as established), you will just have to go through mini cycles after each addition. That is that the bacteria will play catch-up to consume the ammonia, overgrow, then die-off. While cycling with fish is not good, these cycles, WITH SLOW INTRODUCTION, will be so minimal that your test kits should never register any ammonia.

Chiefsurfer · 01/13/2010, 08:09 AM

if you want to make sure the bacteria are present, try this. Use a raw shrimp(like you would get at the supermarket). Cut a 1/4" cube out of it, and throw it in. If you see no spike in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in 3 days, you know the bacteria are already present. Then I would say wait til 2 weeks from intro of the rock, and add one fish.

snewcrash · 01/13/2010, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefsurfer

ammonia is created by dead/rotting organic matter. Without any death, you should have no natural cycle. You CAN induce a cycle by adding more ammonia, but you shouldn't need to.

Bacteria colonies will expand/grow and then die off until they reach the optimal size to consume whatever amount of ammonia is normally produced in your tank. It's like any other form of wildlife, food is the ultimate limiting factor. Sometimes because of a warm winter, or for some reason, larger than normal amounts of food, you will get booms in certain wildlife populations(good examples are deer and bear). Then over the course of a specific time, those colonies will reduce in size, until the bacteria have reached the exact right size to be sustained, no more, no less, by the ammount of ammonia that is produced in your tank. Because when getting a full cycle, the colony builds up pretty high, and therefore the bacteria will have a big colony, and will be able to consume all the ammonia produce by new introductions to the tank. When you have an already established colony of bacteria, and it may be small(only using 1/3 your LR as established), you will just have to go through mini cycles after each addition. That is that the bacteria will play catch-up to consume the ammonia, overgrow, then die-off. While cycling with fish is not good, these cycles, WITH SLOW INTRODUCTION, will be so minimal that your test kits should never register any ammonia.

Thanks, sounds like I just need to take it slow with the introduction of my fish. Am I alright adding a clean up crew within a couple days of introducing the live rock and making sure my parameters are ok?

Also, I have 2 Two Little Fishies reactors that I'm going to be running phosban and carbon in. Can I start running those right away?

sowellj · 01/13/2010, 08:34 AM

You would be fine in running your reactors. As mentioned previously, make your livestock additions slowly as your bacteria population is somewhat small.

Chiefsurfer · 01/13/2010, 09:33 AM

You could throw a FEW snails in, but I would reccomend definitely waiting til everything is zero for a few days. They are much more intolerant to amm, nitrite, and nitrates than fish.

01/13/2010, 07:43 AM	#1
snewcrash Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 349	How is my cycle going to work? I have a 75 gallon tank with a 55 gallon sump. I have 50 pounds of marco dry rock. I am going to get 25 pounds of live rock. The live rock will be transported from a local established tank, in water the entire time (except during the transfer out of the tank into a bucket). I'll also be getting a few cups of sand from the tank and transporting it in the same manner. Will I experience a normal cycle since the live rock is only going to be out of water for a minute at most? How long until I can add fish?

01/13/2010, 07:48 AM	#2
sedor Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 4,689	No, you need to add ammonia in order to get the cycle started. This can be done in 1 of 3 ways: 1) Get a couple large RAW shrimp from the grocery store seafood counter and put them either in the sand or in a pantyhose with the toe cut off. This is by far the most popular method. 2) You could feed the tank a couple pinches of food everyday. 3) Use liquid ammonia and dose the tank daily until you see the levels go up. Either way you choose, the goal is to get ammonia into the system, which in turn will help get the bacteria cultures started converting the ammonia into nitrite, and then later into nitrate. When your ammonia goes up and then down, followed by the nitrite, followed by the nitrate your cycle will be done. You will probably be left with nitrates in your system and at that point you'll do a water change and add your first fish. __________________ Ryan

01/13/2010, 08:03 AM	#6
sedor Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 4,689	But what harm is adding a shrimp or two? Its a tried and true method and although not necessary with LR, its a good way for someone new to know they are doing things right. __________________ Ryan

01/13/2010, 07:50 AM	#3
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	most-likely, keeping the water fairly heated(unless traveling will keep heat loss at almost nothing) you will experience little to no cycle. The LR should have bacteria, and even if there is die-off, it should be eaten by the bacteria pretty quickly. I would still give it like 2 weeks, as you will still probably go through the algae cycles. Also, when adding fish, and/or other stuff, do it VERY slow, as your colony will only be on 1/3 of your rock. So it will have to come up to the correct bioload. ^As to sedor's comment: I do not feel he has to force a cycle with anything. The rock will be wet the whole time, and if the tank it is coming from has fish it will have a fairly large colony of bacteria. It will just have to grow with each fish addition. If you want to throw a raw shrimp in for 2-3 days, and measure your ammonia to make sure the bacteria survived, that is possible, but you do not have to force a full cycle.

01/13/2010, 08:06 AM	#7
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	ammonia is created by dead/rotting organic matter. Without any death, you should have no natural cycle. You CAN induce a cycle by adding more ammonia, but you shouldn't need to. Bacteria colonies will expand/grow and then die off until they reach the optimal size to consume whatever amount of ammonia is normally produced in your tank. It's like any other form of wildlife, food is the ultimate limiting factor. Sometimes because of a warm winter, or for some reason, larger than normal amounts of food, you will get booms in certain wildlife populations(good examples are deer and bear). Then over the course of a specific time, those colonies will reduce in size, until the bacteria have reached the exact right size to be sustained, no more, no less, by the ammount of ammonia that is produced in your tank. Because when getting a full cycle, the colony builds up pretty high, and therefore the bacteria will have a big colony, and will be able to consume all the ammonia produce by new introductions to the tank. When you have an already established colony of bacteria, and it may be small(only using 1/3 your LR as established), you will just have to go through mini cycles after each addition. That is that the bacteria will play catch-up to consume the ammonia, overgrow, then die-off. While cycling with fish is not good, these cycles, WITH SLOW INTRODUCTION, will be so minimal that your test kits should never register any ammonia.

01/13/2010, 08:09 AM	#8
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	if you want to make sure the bacteria are present, try this. Use a raw shrimp(like you would get at the supermarket). Cut a 1/4" cube out of it, and throw it in. If you see no spike in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in 3 days, you know the bacteria are already present. Then I would say wait til 2 weeks from intro of the rock, and add one fish.

01/13/2010, 08:34 AM	#10
sowellj Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: greenwood, sc Posts: 712	You would be fine in running your reactors. As mentioned previously, make your livestock additions slowly as your bacteria population is somewhat small.

01/13/2010, 09:33 AM	#11
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	You could throw a FEW snails in, but I would reccomend definitely waiting til everything is zero for a few days. They are much more intolerant to amm, nitrite, and nitrates than fish.