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Unread 05/26/2010, 09:38 PM   #1
dezertracer17
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100gallon tank return gph vs pump gph problems???

Hey, im new to this hobby i had a tank up for about 6 months and i tore id down due to spending lots of money on fish and having a complete tank wipe out all from purchasing one fish from a shady store!! so over the last 6-7 months ive been purchasing parts to help start off on a better foot. I just recently picked up my last part a reeflo dart gold and a bio fill 40 gal sump. This might sound kinda stupid but how do i figure out how much my overflow GPH is?? Cause I am having problems with my pump vs overflow ratio?? If that makes sense...The overflow has 1.5 PVC to the sump and the pump goes from 1.5 to 1.0 to .750 which then splits into 6 returns. If anybody can help me id greatly appreciate it!! Thanks in advance


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Unread 05/27/2010, 04:41 AM   #2
sjm817
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That pump is WAY too big for that size system.


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Unread 05/27/2010, 09:24 AM   #3
dezertracer17
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i have 2 regular darts aswell im gonna try and throw one of those on and see how it works!!! if that doesnt help it. would it make sense to add an other overflow box??


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Unread 05/27/2010, 04:34 PM   #4
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What kind of overflow box are you using? I have used two overflow boxes before but its more hassle than what its worth. Better to match the pump to the overflow box gph and if the pump is still to strong then add a "T" to the tank return line and make a recirculation line with a ball valve to the sump. You can then dial the amount of water flow going back to the tank without adding extra head pressure to the pump.


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Unread 05/27/2010, 04:51 PM   #5
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dezertracer17 first,

To Reef Central

That pump is HUGE for a return pump. Generally, 3 - 5x display size is what you should target. That is 300 - 500 GPH. You are using a 3600 GPH pump. Its not even in the ballpark. Using a T to dump most of the flow back into the sump is just a waste of electricity. Get a much smaller return pump that is the right size for the system.


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Unread 05/27/2010, 05:22 PM   #6
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You might want to take a look at the headloss calculator as well: http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...oss-calculator

If your pump isn't listed, the calculator at least gives you total headloss. If you can find the pump specifications and they supply a performance curve for it, then you can estimate the GPH you'd get after all is said and done.

I'm not familiar with the Dart, but is it a pressure rated pump? With a 1.5" output, i'm guessing its not pressure rated. If it isn't then depending on your plumbing (i.e. are you running through a chiller, UV sterilizer, teeing off for a calcium reactors, etc.) you might be ok, but i agree, it does appear to be a large pump. On the other hand, the fact that you have 6 returns might give you the flow you need. Also, how are you reducing your pump to 6 outlets? Are you using a manifold that goes from 1.5" directly to 6 x .75" outlets? I would highly recommend using a manifold to get the most out of your pump. something like this: http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cg...=PVC-Manifolds
Otherwise, you're just wasting electricity.


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Unread 05/27/2010, 11:58 PM   #7
dezertracer17
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thanks for all the answers to answer a few of them it does T- off twice. basically if i can say this right from the pump out i T it at the top of my stand with 1.5 PVC

FLOW 1
where one 1.5 line goes down the front side of the stand and T,s again where it goes threw a ball valve to etss skimmer in sump. then keeps going down to the uv sterilizer where it steps down to .750 PVC comes outta the sterilizer through ball valve still at .750 PVC where it splits and goes into x2 .5 bulkheads on each corner of the back of the tank.

FLOW 2
where the First T left from the pump it goes the other direction in 1.5 , up the back of the tank. Where it comes to another T and goes into 1.0 PVC then finally to .75 PVC where it finally ties into x4 .75 bulkheads with .75 lockline.

hope that explains it alot more. I did throw in the regular dart and it was keeping up alot better obviosly im just having issues with the front bearings getting loud so i probably gonna give reeflo a call tomorrow. that chart was very helpful. also u think switching out the .75 locklines to .5 would be benifically i was thinking that might help abit get me more water pressure at in the tank its self without adding too much flow!!
Thanks for the help


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Unread 05/28/2010, 12:04 AM   #8
dezertracer17
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also the link to that site is like a plumbers paradise!!! i feel like i lived at LOWES the last week or so!!


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Unread 05/28/2010, 05:09 AM   #9
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With all of that its pretty hard to say how much actual flow you have. A Dart is a flow pump meant for large low head plumbing. All of those reductions will significantly reduce the flow to a much lower level.


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Unread 05/28/2010, 10:36 AM   #10
dezertracer17
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what doesnt make sense to me is that even though u say the pump is WAY too big for my system wouldnt it create more pressure as it starts to go through the PVC as it gradually steps down to smaller PVC?? thanks for all the answers by the way very helpful. and its not like im using its full capacity just for returns between the skimmer the uv sterilizer and the 4 returns i would think it wouldnt be using nearly the 4300GPH rating it has just for returns im gonna take a pic of the back of my tank and how its plumbed underneath maybe it will help!! Also i guess another question i have is using the return pump as my skimmer pump almost redundant cause it will keep skimming the same water over and over?? Also i havent hooked up the skimmer to the pump yet which might definately help keep the water in the sump..


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Unread 05/28/2010, 11:08 AM   #11
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So the problem is that you're getting too much flow and your overflow cannot handle the volume? Is your tank close to overflowing then?

What kind of standpipe is in your overflow? That might be the limiting factor. When it is close to overflowing, is the water behind the overflow teeth at the same level as the water in front of it? Or is the water behind much lower than the water in front?

As Scott mentioned, this pump is for high flow and low pressure setups. Did you run the calculator? If so, what was your calculated headloss? What would be the projected GPH using the pump specs as provided here (assuming this is the correct pump) - http://www.championlighting.com/prod...at=1520&page=1


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June 2001 Tank of the Month. Yes, i said 2001.

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Unread 05/28/2010, 12:13 PM   #12
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Pressure (head) works against the pump. The more head, the lower the flow. When I say way too big, it is for these reasons:

1) As stated previously, you need maybe 3 - 5 x display size from the return. 300 - 500 GPH.
2) As you have found out, you have more GPH than the overflow can handle
3) You may not have found this out yet, very high flow through the sump has its own set of problems such as micro bubble control.

Again its hard to say how much actual return flow you have after head loss, skimmer and UV feeds, etc. If its more than the overflow can handle, its obviously a problem.


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Unread 05/28/2010, 12:51 PM   #13
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my 100gal i run a danner mag drive 9.5 (950gph)and i have to throttle it back significantly still, although 950 is about right then you dont need a second maxijet for a reactor just put a T on the return line


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Unread 05/28/2010, 03:09 PM   #14
dezertracer17
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Total losses are 13.61 feet of head pressure, or 5.88 PSI. with a flow rate of 2159 GPH. Process took 292 iterations. that was my result with the calculator with the larger of the two pumps i have. And yes the water behind the teeth in the over flow is lower then the water in the display tank. Also i just have one overflow with 1.5 bulkhead at the bottom. right now i only have it going right over the overflow to the bulkhead i dont have any siphon tube or anything tied in to the bulkhead on the overflow side though


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Unread 05/28/2010, 03:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezertracer17 View Post
Total losses are 13.61 feet of head pressure, or 5.88 PSI. with a flow rate of 2159 GPH. Process took 292 iterations. that was my result with the calculator with the larger of the two pumps i have. And yes the water behind the teeth in the over flow is lower then the water in the display tank. Also i just have one overflow with 1.5 bulkhead at the bottom. right now i only have it going right over the overflow to the bulkhead i dont have any siphon tube or anything tied in to the bulkhead on the overflow side though
Ok, your overflow is definitely the bottleneck and not the standpipe. Bummer.

Which pump did you select in the drop-down menu of the calculator? I didn't see your pump listed on the calculator which is why i gave you the other link for your pump specs. Based on the pump specs and the total head pressure that pump should be putting out less than 700 GPH which your overflow should definitely be able to handle. The max. head on that pump is 13' so your setup should be pushing the pumps limits. Something is not right here.

I have a feeling that calculator assumes all those restrictions on 1 output. In fact, i'm pretty sure that's what it estimates now that i think about it. Since you have multiple outputs on your plumbing the headlosses are much less. It all depends on where and how many times you tee it off and what happens after each tee. This just got extremely complex.

Suggestion #1: Use a smaller pump.
Suggestion #2: Check with the manufacturer (or do a search here on RC) to see if you can throttle that pump down by putting a gate valve on the end of it w/o causing any long term damage. Chances are that you can since a gate valve just adds head pressure and based on the pump curves the more head pressure you add, the less energy the pump consumes. When i had a Sequence Ampmaster i ran it throttled down w/o any problems but i'm not sure about the ReefFlo series.


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June 2001 Tank of the Month. Yes, i said 2001.

Current Tank Info: 112G 36"x36"x20" Lee-mar rimless. Build Thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2293182.
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Unread 05/28/2010, 04:04 PM   #16
dezertracer17
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yeah sorry for the headache im draining the tank right not so i can get some pics of the plumbing. And on the calculator i used 1.5 as my PVC. I do have a ball valve on each side of the pump but my problem is when i turn the valve down to restrict in order to keep up with the flow of the overflow i conflict with the amount of water pressure coming out and i get almost nearly no water movement!! give me about 20 minutes an ill have pics


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Unread 05/28/2010, 04:09 PM   #17
dezertracer17
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also im gonna throw a new seal in the regular dart not the super dart and hook up the standard dart pump and see exactly what its doing


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Unread 05/28/2010, 04:22 PM   #18
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I use darts and barracudas and could probably help you, but I can't tell from your origianl post what the problem is.

Is it:
- the pump is too strong and the the return can't keep up, so the sump gets sucked dry, or
- the tank will overflow,
- or something else (please describe)?


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Unread 05/28/2010, 04:44 PM   #19
dezertracer17
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theres a few pics maybe will help some of the confusion


Attached Images
File Type: jpg reef.jpg (34.7 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg reef1.jpg (29.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg reef2.jpg (45.5 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg reef3.jpg (33.5 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg reef4.jpg (34.9 KB, 14 views)
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Unread 05/28/2010, 04:50 PM   #20
dezertracer17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckreef View Post
I use darts and barracudas and could probably help you, but I can't tell from your origianl post what the problem is.

Is it:
- the pump is too strong and the the return can't keep up, so the sump gets sucked dry, or
- the tank will overflow,
- or something else (please describe)?
The pump is too strong and the return cant keep up so the sump level gets too low for the pump to suck water.So I used a ball valve on the pump side to slow it down but when i do this it makes all the returns have not enough pressure and i dont get nearly enough water movement..


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Unread 05/28/2010, 09:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezertracer17 View Post
The pump is too strong and the return cant keep up so the sump level gets too low for the pump to suck water.So I used a ball valve on the pump side to slow it down but when i do this it makes all the returns have not enough pressure and i dont get nearly enough water movement..
The proper way to reduce flow is to use a gate valve and not a ball valve. It allows you to make fine adjustments.

Also, from what you're describing it sounds like you're reaching the maximum head for that pump. That pump can only operate with a maximum head of 13'. At 13' its somewhere less than 700 GPH. Anywhere between 10'-13', even the slightest amount of backpressure will decrease the flow significantly. This is evidenced by the performance curve. At 10' it can push 1850 GPH, however, at 12' the flow drops by more than half down to 750 GPH.

In looking at the pictures, that's an awfully small overflow. I was expecting something a little wider. That overflow on there is probably rated near the limit of your pump (i.e. 750 GPH). You're gonna have a hard time dialing that thing in if at all.

I'd recommend getting a pressure rated pump and instead of running 6 outlets off your return, run 2 (or maybe 4). This way you'll get good steady flow. Then consider running a closed loop on the remaining outlets.

That's my $.02


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Unread 05/28/2010, 09:26 PM   #22
dezertracer17
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yeah after messing with it all day i cant make it work.. atleast with what im working with at the moment. i thought about adding another over flow box but ive been keeping my eye out on CG for a bigger tank. i really appreciate all the help thanks for all the responses


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Unread 05/28/2010, 09:37 PM   #23
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also what exactly is a closed loop system?? is it where the tank drains straight into the pump and goes right back into the display tank?basically no sump to pass through??


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Unread 05/28/2010, 10:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezertracer17 View Post
yeah after messing with it all day i cant make it work.. atleast with what im working with at the moment. i thought about adding another over flow box but ive been keeping my eye out on CG for a bigger tank. i really appreciate all the help thanks for all the responses
No need to add another overflow box. As mentioned earlier, 3-5x tank turnover is more than enough. Any more than that, and you'll have other problems to deal with, i.e. noise, bubbles....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dezertracer17 View Post
also what exactly is a closed loop system?? is it where the tank drains straight into the pump and goes right back into the display tank?basically no sump to pass through??
Yep, that's exactly what it is.


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