Custom sump questions

Drewbaby · 06/30/2010, 11:31 PM

Ok so it's been done a hundred times, but here's the twist. My tank is a 180. It's the 72" long one. The stand was built so that the vertical braces are staggared with one in the front between the two sets of doors and two supports in the back. The ones in the back are centered with the opening to the doors. Because of this I can't fit anything longer than 36" under the tank. The tank came with a megaflow model 4 sump/wet dry, but there is limited roo
in it for my pump and skimmer. I measured the inside space of the stand and because the vertical supports are built with 2x6's doubled up I only have 13" width at max. This means at most if I use a prebuilt tank I am stuck with a tank 36"x12"x20" which is a 39 gallon tank. A standard 30 would work well, but it doesn't leave much room after equipment and baffles.

My questions:

Is a 30 gallon sump too small for a 180 gallon tank?

Could I remove one of the vertical supports temporarily to install a larger sump ( the 180 is currently running and full of water and 200 lbs of sand and 250 lbs of rock )

Would it be better to use 2 36" tanks and connect them with say 2" bulkheads? Possibly 4 total to allow good flow.

I'm kind of lost as to what i should do. I could keep the current megaflow 4 wet dry sump, but it is 13" wide and has to sit in the stand at a crooked angle and takes up more than half of the stand leaving no room for a refuge and very little room for a good skimmer.

The only alternative I see is to drain the tank as much as possible to relieve most of the weight on the vertical supports then remove the front one long enough to have a custom tank put in. Then replace the supports immediately.

The only reason I say custom tank is because of the inside dimension od the stand. It would have to be 60"x12"x18" to be perfectly ideal. But they don't make tanks that size unless it's custom. I could make it but don't know if the cost of glass would be too much.

uncleof6 · 07/01/2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewbaby

My questions:

Is a 30 gallon sump too small for a 180 gallon tank?

Yes, you need at least an 18 gallon "fuge" section, for it to be worthwhile. Sans the "fuge" section, it would work.

Quote:

Could I remove one of the vertical supports temporarily to install a larger sump ( the 180 is currently running and full of water and 200 lbs of sand and 250 lbs of rock )

A bit late for that, but yeah you could drain it, support it otherwise, and remove one of the vertical supports to get a sump in there.

Quote:

Would it be better to use 2 36" tanks and connect them with say 2" bulkheads? Possibly 4 total to allow good flow.

Not really, as joining them with bulkheads, will not give you "flow" through the tanks, merely equal water level.

Quote:

I'm kind of lost as to what i should do. I could keep the current megaflow 4 wet dry sump, but it is 13" wide and has to sit in the stand at a crooked angle and takes up more than half of the stand leaving no room for a refuge and very little room for a good skimmer.

The only alternative I see is to drain the tank as much as possible to relieve most of the weight on the vertical supports then remove the front one long enough to have a custom tank put in. Then replace the supports immediately.

The only reason I say custom tank is because of the inside dimension od the stand. It would have to be 60"x12"x18" to be perfectly ideal. But they don't make tanks that size unless it's custom. I could make it but don't know if the cost of glass would be too much.

Way I see it, you need a custom stand, rather than a custom sump. 12" wide sump, is going to have fairly high water velocity through it, and make some noise on ya. The stand is wasting so much space it is ridiculous, should be no reason you cant get a 60e under a 180 gallon tank, (48 x 15 x 17,) and the stand would still be overbuilt if you could fit a sump 18" front to back. Just a thought.....

Jim

Drewbaby · 07/01/2010, 08:41 AM

Even if I were to rebuild the stand myself the tank dimensions are 72"x18"x31" to have a stand that's got doubled 2x anythings I would be giving up 3" on both sides leaving me with 12" internal width. Could I build a stand with just 2x6 or 2x8 as vertical AND horizontal supports without doubling up the vertical supports?

Right now, whoever built this stand for the tank used 2x4's for the horizontal and 2x6's back to back for the vertical.

I'm just worried that using say 2x8's is going to limit the height of the opening on my doors not lettin me get in there to change skimmer cup, add top off (until I get an Ato), and any other thing I need to get in there for

uncleof6 · 07/01/2010, 10:30 AM

Well, let me put it like this: For a 180 gallon tank, whether it be the tall (as you have) or the standard (24 x 24, which is a far better tank dimension wise,) plywood, without lumber-- save MAYBE 2 x 2 screw strips in the corners, will provide ample sleep at night ability. Whoever built the stand, got it bassackwards, the 2 x 6's should be the horizontals, and the 2 x 4's should be the verticals. Even at that, however, you problem would not be solved. I think the builder bought too far into the common thought, that if it don't hold up 10 tons, you can't sleep at night.

Commercially produced stands, are not much more than plywood. They get a bad rap, but if you look it, it is not due to a load carrying issue, it is mass produced anything is going to suffer quality wise, in a way one off custom will not.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1213499

Jim

Drewbaby · 07/01/2010, 03:51 PM

So I would be able to make a stand out of plywood that would support my 180? What thickness would I need to use. I wouldnt feel safe using 3/4" after all it has to support almost a ton literally when full of water/rock/ and the pure weight of the 1/2" glass. Could I use single 2x8's for the top support frame with 2x6 legs on only the corners with no middle vertical supports and a 2x4 bottom frame that is skinned in 3/4" ply? I feel like this would be alot sturdier and allow me to still have complete access to the front of the stand.

Jeff000 · 07/01/2010, 03:56 PM

Glass tank I assume, cut the middle support out, its not doing anything anyways, a glass tank does not need to be supported through out the entire base. The ends are just fine.

3/4" Plywood at the ends is really all that provides supports on commercial stands for even much larger tanks.

Drewbaby · 07/01/2010, 05:10 PM

I may end up just doing that without the cutting if possible. I think the brace is screwed in. Or at least I hope, but Ill have to drain the tank of alot of the water. Im not pulling out the rock. It took too long to get it the way I have it. So Ill just drain out what water I can to leave enough room for the fish to swim around then pray that the stand will hold the tank long enough to change out the old sump and put the new one in place, but I still have the problem of the 12" width availability inside the stand which limits my tank choices for prebuilt tanks to convert into a sump.

Jeff000 · 07/01/2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewbaby

I may end up just doing that without the cutting if possible. I think the brace is screwed in. Or at least I hope, but Ill have to drain the tank of alot of the water. Im not pulling out the rock. It took too long to get it the way I have it. So Ill just drain out what water I can to leave enough room for the fish to swim around then pray that the stand will hold the tank long enough to change out the old sump and put the new one in place, but I still have the problem of the 12" width availability inside the stand which limits my tank choices for prebuilt tanks to convert into a sump.

A LFS here has lots of 11 7/8" wide tanks, They call them slim sumps. All different lengths and heights.

If its just screwed in then its doing nothing for sure. As I said, glass tank only needs support at the ends. doubled up 2x6 is so far past overkill that I don't even know what word would be more fitting.
Go look at a commercial stand in a fish store near you, you will see ply wood ends being the only support, and most center "supports" are simply so the doors have something to mount to if its a long tank.

Drewbaby · 07/02/2010, 06:19 AM

I'll have to look into the "slim" tanks.

As far as the stand whoever built it made it like a fortress. It took 4 of us to even lift it. I k ow it's overkill, but in the end it's already under my tank which also weighs 3 tons since it's an older glass tank. If I can find a longer "slim" sump that would be perfect.

The only problem I have with my current sump is that it wasn't designed with a proper 3-stage baffle and the baffle it does have acts like more of a place to put a sponge for debri pickup before the pump chamber which is 10" long. It has a bioballs chamber that I have full of live rock that takes up half of the total sump leaving me with little room for a skimmer large enough for a 180 reef. Plus because the sump is only 36" it allows major micro bubbles into the display when I run any kind of skimmer.

Are those slim tanks glass or acrylic?

tydtran · 07/02/2010, 07:10 AM

I think that if you want to stick with this stand, 2 36 inch tanks could work. I think you could do it in 2 ways.
1) Make one tank a refugium and the other a skimmer/chemical filtration sump. Don't connect the tanks. Just split the drain from your display between the two and give each tank a return pump.
2) You can connect the two tanks with bulkheads as you suggest but put one tank above the other. You choose the height at which you place the tank and the position of the bulkheads to control the water level, similar to the way you would use the height of a baffle to control water level in a sump. In this setup, you just have to think through the water levels carefully and make sure to plan how you would handle the excess water from the display in the event of a return pump failure.

Another way that you could deal with this problem is to cut a side door. If you had enough space in the room, you could then slide a longer sump through the side door. If this is not possible, then I would go with two 36 in sumps. That seemes easier than bulding a new stand. Moving a tank from one stand to another is a real pain in the neck.

Jeff000 · 07/02/2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewbaby

I'll have to look into the "slim" tanks.

As far as the stand whoever built it made it like a fortress. It took 4 of us to even lift it. I k ow it's overkill, but in the end it's already under my tank which also weighs 3 tons since it's an older glass tank. If I can find a longer "slim" sump that would be perfect.

The only problem I have with my current sump is that it wasn't designed with a proper 3-stage baffle and the baffle it does have acts like more of a place to put a sponge for debri pickup before the pump chamber which is 10" long. It has a bioballs chamber that I have full of live rock that takes up half of the total sump leaving me with little room for a skimmer large enough for a 180 reef. Plus because the sump is only 36" it allows major micro bubbles into the display when I run any kind of skimmer.

Are those slim tanks glass or acrylic?

The slim tanks are glass. I think they might be custom made by the store though as I know they make a lot of large custom tanks.

Drewbaby · 07/02/2010, 03:18 PM

Thanks, I think I'll look into having one made at a local shop and see what their rates are vs. Having one custom built at a tank manufacturer and shipped. I'm sure it would be cheaper locally.

cpl40475 · 07/02/2010, 07:34 PM

Why not build your stand custom? Make the stand big enough to house what ever sized sump you want. If the tank is 18in front to back make the stand 2ft front to back scoot it as far back as you want and that also gives you a shelf in the front to place items on. No one ever said the stand has to be the same as the DT. I had a 180 with a 55gal sump. If you make the stand like I mentioned you can get a 75 tank for use as a sump possibly even bigger.
HTH

Jeff000 · 07/02/2010, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpl40475

Why not build your stand custom? Make the stand big enough to house what ever sized sump you want. If the tank is 18in front to back make the stand 2ft front to back scoot it as far back as you want and that also gives you a shelf in the front to place items on. No one ever said the stand has to be the same as the DT. I had a 180 with a 55gal sump. If you make the stand like I mentioned you can get a 75 tank for use as a sump possibly even bigger.
HTH

He doesn't want to drain his tank.

06/30/2010, 11:31 PM	#1
Drewbaby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: FL Posts: 874	Custom sump questions Ok so it's been done a hundred times, but here's the twist. My tank is a 180. It's the 72" long one. The stand was built so that the vertical braces are staggared with one in the front between the two sets of doors and two supports in the back. The ones in the back are centered with the opening to the doors. Because of this I can't fit anything longer than 36" under the tank. The tank came with a megaflow model 4 sump/wet dry, but there is limited roo in it for my pump and skimmer. I measured the inside space of the stand and because the vertical supports are built with 2x6's doubled up I only have 13" width at max. This means at most if I use a prebuilt tank I am stuck with a tank 36"x12"x20" which is a 39 gallon tank. A standard 30 would work well, but it doesn't leave much room after equipment and baffles. My questions: Is a 30 gallon sump too small for a 180 gallon tank? Could I remove one of the vertical supports temporarily to install a larger sump ( the 180 is currently running and full of water and 200 lbs of sand and 250 lbs of rock ) Would it be better to use 2 36" tanks and connect them with say 2" bulkheads? Possibly 4 total to allow good flow. I'm kind of lost as to what i should do. I could keep the current megaflow 4 wet dry sump, but it is 13" wide and has to sit in the stand at a crooked angle and takes up more than half of the stand leaving no room for a refuge and very little room for a good skimmer. The only alternative I see is to drain the tank as much as possible to relieve most of the weight on the vertical supports then remove the front one long enough to have a custom tank put in. Then replace the supports immediately. The only reason I say custom tank is because of the inside dimension od the stand. It would have to be 60"x12"x18" to be perfectly ideal. But they don't make tanks that size unless it's custom. I could make it but don't know if the cost of glass would be too much.

07/01/2010, 10:30 AM	#4
uncleof6 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: AWOL Posts: 12,013	Well, let me put it like this: For a 180 gallon tank, whether it be the tall (as you have) or the standard (24 x 24, which is a far better tank dimension wise,) plywood, without lumber-- save MAYBE 2 x 2 screw strips in the corners, will provide ample sleep at night ability. Whoever built the stand, got it bassackwards, the 2 x 6's should be the horizontals, and the 2 x 4's should be the verticals. Even at that, however, you problem would not be solved. I think the builder bought too far into the common thought, that if it don't hold up 10 tons, you can't sleep at night. Commercially produced stands, are not much more than plywood. They get a bad rap, but if you look it, it is not due to a load carrying issue, it is mass produced anything is going to suffer quality wise, in a way one off custom will not. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1213499 Jim __________________ "Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." (oft attributed to Einstein; most likely paraphrasing by Roger Sessions; compactly articulates the principle of Occam's Razor) Current Tank Info: 325 6' wide Reef

07/02/2010, 07:34 PM	#13
cpl40475 Just hanging out Join Date: May 2007 Location: ky Posts: 786	Why not build your stand custom? Make the stand big enough to house what ever sized sump you want. If the tank is 18in front to back make the stand 2ft front to back scoot it as far back as you want and that also gives you a shelf in the front to place items on. No one ever said the stand has to be the same as the DT. I had a 180 with a 55gal sump. If you make the stand like I mentioned you can get a 75 tank for use as a sump possibly even bigger. HTH __________________ Im just a redneck in a city slickers lifestyle Current Tank Info: WORKING ON IT

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07/01/2010, 08:41 AM	#3
Drewbaby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: FL Posts: 874	Even if I were to rebuild the stand myself the tank dimensions are 72"x18"x31" to have a stand that's got doubled 2x anythings I would be giving up 3" on both sides leaving me with 12" internal width. Could I build a stand with just 2x6 or 2x8 as vertical AND horizontal supports without doubling up the vertical supports? Right now, whoever built this stand for the tank used 2x4's for the horizontal and 2x6's back to back for the vertical. I'm just worried that using say 2x8's is going to limit the height of the opening on my doors not lettin me get in there to change skimmer cup, add top off (until I get an Ato), and any other thing I need to get in there for

07/01/2010, 03:51 PM	#5
Drewbaby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: FL Posts: 874	So I would be able to make a stand out of plywood that would support my 180? What thickness would I need to use. I wouldnt feel safe using 3/4" after all it has to support almost a ton literally when full of water/rock/ and the pure weight of the 1/2" glass. Could I use single 2x8's for the top support frame with 2x6 legs on only the corners with no middle vertical supports and a 2x4 bottom frame that is skinned in 3/4" ply? I feel like this would be alot sturdier and allow me to still have complete access to the front of the stand.

07/01/2010, 03:56 PM	#6
Jeff000 Electrician Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 1,653	Glass tank I assume, cut the middle support out, its not doing anything anyways, a glass tank does not need to be supported through out the entire base. The ends are just fine. 3/4" Plywood at the ends is really all that provides supports on commercial stands for even much larger tanks.

07/01/2010, 05:10 PM	#7
Drewbaby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: FL Posts: 874	I may end up just doing that without the cutting if possible. I think the brace is screwed in. Or at least I hope, but Ill have to drain the tank of alot of the water. Im not pulling out the rock. It took too long to get it the way I have it. So Ill just drain out what water I can to leave enough room for the fish to swim around then pray that the stand will hold the tank long enough to change out the old sump and put the new one in place, but I still have the problem of the 12" width availability inside the stand which limits my tank choices for prebuilt tanks to convert into a sump.

07/02/2010, 06:19 AM	#9
Drewbaby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: FL Posts: 874	I'll have to look into the "slim" tanks. As far as the stand whoever built it made it like a fortress. It took 4 of us to even lift it. I k ow it's overkill, but in the end it's already under my tank which also weighs 3 tons since it's an older glass tank. If I can find a longer "slim" sump that would be perfect. The only problem I have with my current sump is that it wasn't designed with a proper 3-stage baffle and the baffle it does have acts like more of a place to put a sponge for debri pickup before the pump chamber which is 10" long. It has a bioballs chamber that I have full of live rock that takes up half of the total sump leaving me with little room for a skimmer large enough for a 180 reef. Plus because the sump is only 36" it allows major micro bubbles into the display when I run any kind of skimmer. Are those slim tanks glass or acrylic?

07/02/2010, 07:10 AM	#10
tydtran Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 853	I think that if you want to stick with this stand, 2 36 inch tanks could work. I think you could do it in 2 ways. 1) Make one tank a refugium and the other a skimmer/chemical filtration sump. Don't connect the tanks. Just split the drain from your display between the two and give each tank a return pump. 2) You can connect the two tanks with bulkheads as you suggest but put one tank above the other. You choose the height at which you place the tank and the position of the bulkheads to control the water level, similar to the way you would use the height of a baffle to control water level in a sump. In this setup, you just have to think through the water levels carefully and make sure to plan how you would handle the excess water from the display in the event of a return pump failure. Another way that you could deal with this problem is to cut a side door. If you had enough space in the room, you could then slide a longer sump through the side door. If this is not possible, then I would go with two 36 in sumps. That seemes easier than bulding a new stand. Moving a tank from one stand to another is a real pain in the neck.

07/02/2010, 03:18 PM	#12
Drewbaby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: FL Posts: 874	Thanks, I think I'll look into having one made at a local shop and see what their rates are vs. Having one custom built at a tank manufacturer and shipped. I'm sure it would be cheaper locally.