Big Plumbing Problem/Need Help

[Airborne]

Long Problem will try to shorten:

I had my tank installed. Tank in house, sump/pump in garage. Tank 120g drilled center overflow 6" from the bottom with 3/4" returns. The top reutrns are drill on the back of the tank for 3/4" returns. There is a total vertical distance of 3 feet and horizontal of 8.5 feet.
The pump is a Reeflo Dart. The guy plumbed the pump like this: check valve, true union with ball valve all 1 1/2" to match the outlet. Then right after the true union he reduced to 3/4" all the way to the returns in the DT. There is almost 0 flow from the returns. I called Reeflo and they ran the head loss and said that the right way would have been to run 1 1/2" PVC all the way to the returns. Too late for that now. I am thinking of ditching the Euro-Fil Sump and the Reeflo Dart for a new glass sump and a new return pump. I do not wqant to tear down the tank to drill the holes in the walls larger due to the fact that I have fish and SPS/LPS that I do not want to lose. What other ways can I re-plumb in place or is there a pump that has a 3/4" outlet that rocks or produces alot of flow. I barely have any water draining in my sock which is a 2" drain. Barely any water movement in my sump. Bottom line is the guy screwed up when he plumbed the tank. My neighbor has a Reeflo Dart and he runs 1 1/2" all the way and has to throttle back the pump. I am running a Dart, Koralia and 2 MP 40's. He runs 1 Reeflo Dart. I have pics but they are too large to download here. I am signing off for now to go home but will be back up in 2 hours.

I appreciate any and all help.

Thx

[viggen]

So he reduced a single 1.5in line to a single 3/4 in line??? There is a head loss calc on this site, you can use it to get a idea of the flow.

You actually do not want a lot of flow through your sump so even though he did screw up the install, it's actually not all bad!!! The Dart's are suppose to work fine (doesn't hurt the pump) with high head pressure & they will also use less energy vs running at 4ft head. What is in your sump? You do not want a lot of flow through there.... 2-4x's a hour is all that is needed. So a 120g tank 250-500gph is really all that's needed.

If you are stuck on wanting lots of flow you need a pump that can push high flow through that pupe. Iwaki 55 or 100 rlt would do the trick but they are LOUD & also suck a LOT of power. There is also the UNO line from Reeflo that uses a 1.5in intake & a .75 in return. They will consume 3x's the power of your Dart & flow a few times more water as well but to much flow is bad in the sump!!!!

[Airborne]

I appreciate your response. I will look into the head loss calculator.

[sjm817]

I often see posts of Reeflo pumps using less electricity when flow is reduced. That is not a unique feature to Reeflo. Its true of any pump. Also, their flow/power charts do not show this to be the case. The flow going from 1.5" to 3/4" will be dramatically lower. A 1.5" pipe has over 3.5x the area of 3/4". As previously posted, you dont need huge flow through the sump anyway. You can try it and see how it works out.

http://www.reeflopumps.com/images/Fl...dard_Pumps.xls

Snapper
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 2,300 98
2' 2,000 110
4' 1,650 119
7' 1,250 119
9' 960 110
13' 500 110
17 150 105


DART
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 3,600 145
2' 3,450 149
4' 3,035 152
6' 2,428 155
8' 2,160 153
10' 1,520 146
12' 630 125

BARRACUDA
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 4,300 225
4' 3,843 236
8' 3,333 248
10' 3,018 251
12' 2,730 253
16' 1,810 237
19' 603 189

TARPON
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 1,444 125
4' 1,284 144
9' 1,176 166
12' 1,020 176
16' 786 188
20' 558 196
23' 264 199

WAHOO
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 1,762 204
5' 1,732 230
10' 1,676 251
15' 1,466 270
20' 1,164 284
25' 715 295
29' 362 300
32' 51 305

[viggen]

Originally Posted by sjm817

I often see posts of Reeflo pumps using less electricity when flow is reduced. That is not a unique feature to Reeflo. Its true of any pump. Also, their flow/power charts do not show this to be the case.

DART
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 3,600 145
2' 3,450 149
4' 3,035 152
6' 2,428 155
8' 2,160 153
10' 1,520 146
12' 630 125

WAHOO
Pressure GPH Watts
0' 1,762 204
5' 1,732 230
10' 1,676 251
15' 1,466 270
20' 1,164 284
25' 715 295
29' 362 300
32' 51 305

Correct other pumps do this as well but it's not a feature of every pump. Take the Dart which is probably made to run around what a typical tank would show in the head pressure area, 6-8 feet maybe. not sure what head the pump in this thread pushes, possibly 10ft + due to the restricted flow. Comparing those numbers the pump does turn less flow vs 6-8ft. I doubt many people are able to run these pumps at 0 ft head which is the most effecient.

Pumps designed to run at high head pressures usually suck more juice as the head increases. Not all are that way but most are just like the wahoo graph.

[sjm817]

I've never seen a pump that didn't use less power when flow was reduced. AFAIK, all centrifugal pumps work this way. Yes, pumps made for high head will in general use more power. They should be used for the appropriate applications like basement sumps and injection skimmers. In this case, 3/4" plumbing is equal to quite a bit of head. 10'? Hard to say.

I just find it odd that the Reeflo flowchart says "Valving back = lower watts & longer motor life " and not a single pump on that chart shows it to be the case. Most of the pumps power curves are pretty flat. The GPH/watt is still very good regardless.

[RegalAngel]

Originally Posted by Airborne

I I am thinking of ditching the Euro-Fil Sump and the Reeflo Dart for a new glass sump and a new return pump.

What other ways can I re-plumb in place or is there a pump that has a 3/4" outlet that rocks or produces alot of flow.
I appreciate any and all help.

Thx

Replace the Dart with a Reeflo Marlin...I have used two with 3/4" lines and it is a high pressure pump (Dart is not). It will flow the water great.

[sjm817]

For a 120G, I think he could use a smaller pump than a Marlin. In a Reeflo, maybe a Tarpon or Wahoo. There really isn't much vertical head. Its just the small plumbing, so a super high head pump doesn't seem to be needed. A Panworld pump would also be a good option.

[Airborne]

Thanks for the help. I have a Euro-Fil Sump that has removable baffles/dividers. They are not fused to the sump. I was thinking of ditching the sump and going with a larger sump that has stationary baffles so that the water level can remain constant.

This is where I thought since the tank has been plumbed with 3/4" I may as well ditch the pump for a pump that has a 3/4" outlet. I also thought of capping off the bottom returns in the overflow box and just have the 2 top returns.

I will look into those pumps. Also a recommendation was to get a Laguna Max Flo 2400 or even 2 and run them seperately to the top returns and then the bottom. I just thought that there would be one pump that can provide enough flow to 4- 3/4" returns with a max head loss of 11-12ft.

[sjm817]

I would stick with an external pump. There are lots of them that will work for that application. How much flow are you shooting for?

[Airborne]

The way the tank is plumbed right now, I have a total of 4 returns. The top 2 I had to install the accelerators on the end of the lock lines to help increase. even with the accelerators, it feels like the same flow as a Koralia #2 which is about 600gph. If you point it up to the water surface, it will barely ripple.

I would like to incerase the flow to where I did not have to run 2 MP-40's or additional powerheads. Maybe this is not possible. But my neighbor has the same pump that was plumbed correctly and he has to throttle the ball valve down to 1/2 to 3/4.

I am guessing that I would like to see 1200 per return.

Go easy on me as this is my first tank upgrade from my nano so I have been following the advice of my LFS who recommended this guy to me. I told them that I wanted this done right from the get go and that never was done now I have to re-do everything. Spent $400 to have this tank plumbed wrong. talk about frustrated.

[TellyFish]

Originally Posted by Airborne

Go easy on me as this is my first tank upgrade from my nano so I have been following the advice of my LFS who recommended this guy to me. I told them that I wanted this done right from the get go and that never was done now I have to re-do everything. Spent $400 to have this tank plumbed wrong. talk about frustrated.

If everyone would get their planning advice from this site, most LFS would be out-of-business. Then again, its all relative to your standards of what "doing it right" means. We do seem to have the HIGHEST standards on this site

I notice you mentions "accelerators". As I understand it, most of those devices require a "high-pressure" pump to function. I would not expect them to increase flow using that pump.

So I see only really see 2 options... are your returns drilled through the back wall or something? If they were plumbed over-the-top, I would just do OPTION 1: and re-plumb for larger returns. This will allow you to run the DART (huge savings on electricity over your other option, which is...) ... OPTION 2: purchase a new "HIGH-Pressure" or "Pressure-rated" pump. As Viggen mentioned, this style of pump will cost around 3x more in electric usage. The advantages for you will be: "Not having to do any major plumbing", "Increased flow pressure across the board on the 3/4" returns", and "It will have the pressure to power your flow-accelerators".

[TellyFish]

Originally Posted by Airborne

The way the tank is plumbed right now, I have a total of 4 returns.
I am guessing that I would like to see 1200 per return.

OK, so real quick, we are looking at a goal of 1200gph per return. Multiply that by all 4 returns, and you are looking at a total request of 4800gph. Is that what your looking for, or did you want 1200gph total? If you want 1200gph EACH, you would need a very heavy-duty high-pressure pump to push those numbers at 10ft, as well as some serious drain-power to boot.

If you like the Reeflo pumps (I do), you could look into something like the Manta Ray High-Pressure Pump. It will push 4801gph @ 11ft of head. For this, you will pay in for a whopping 847watts. This is likely around 4-5x the electricity the low-pressure pumps use. You would however, have more flow than you could shake a stick at. As mentioned above, you may want to design your sump so that you dont need to push all of that across the skimmer/etc... It will be like a raging river!

[sjm817]

You cant use more return flow than the overflows can handle. What is the overflow setup?

[TellyFish]

Originally Posted by sjm817

You cant use more return flow than the overflows can handle. What is the overflow setup?

This is really your limiting factor. If your tank was designed from a LFS, I can almost guarantee that your overflow is not currently set up to handle anything near 4800gph.

Also interested to know how your overflow works...

[Airborne]

The overflow is a center overflow that has a 2" drain. It has two 3/4" returns that are 6" off the bottom of the tank. Inside the overflow the bulkhead has a Y insert. Soft tubing conects the Y to the actual return, inside the overflow. Sort of looks like two loops in the overflow.

[sjm817]

You can get quite a bit of flow through a 2" drain. There are lots of other factors such as the standpipe design, weir design, plumbing from the overflow back to the sump, etc. How big is the sump? I'm not a fan of huge return flow. I like to run 3 - 5x display size, but others run higher just fine.

[TellyFish]

2" drain without a siphon should be good for around 3000 gph. Next would be to determine if your weir can handle that kind of flow. According to the simple calculator here on RC, you would want somewhere around a "minimum linear overflow size of 45 inches." Do you have teeth on the overflow? There is a limit to the amount of water that can squeeze between those teeth at a given time.

I am assuming that your 2" drain runs straight into the sump? Any major restrictions? Do you have a back-up drain or is it just the single 2" drain line?

[Airborne]

The sump is a 29gal Euro-Fil. The drain drops down to a 90 elbow and goes through the wall into the garage and hits another 90 to drop striaght down into the sock. Inside the overflow which does have teeth, I slipped a 2" pvc pipe in the drain as to silence the water.

I can't estimate what the flow is in the sump, but the sock barely moves on the bottom. Sorry I can't be of more help, but I am not experienced enough to know better.

My LFS is out of ideas that would work and say that I may have to tear the entire tank down and start over. The wife is against this idea. I am getting frustrated to the point that I am considering shutting the tank down and getting out. It is at the point that another LFS said they could come out but it would cost me another $300-$400. That would mean that I paid $800 to plumb a tank. This is crazy.

My wife knows my level of frustration and I think she knows that I will shut it down if this is the case and that is why she says, leave it alone.

[sjm817]

1. Take a deep breath and relax
2. Stop listening to the LFS. That is what got you in this predicament

You dont need to tear the tank down. There is nothing here that cant be fixed. A very common new tank owner mistake is to try and have a huge return flow for display turnover. It doesn't work. You will always need additional in display circulation via other means.

What I would do if possible is measure the return flow. If you can redirect your return nozzles so that you can fill a 1 - 2 gallon bucket and time how long it takes to fill, that will give us the actual return flow. Alternately, you could do it from the drain (sump) side. Its the same GPH.

Next, a 120G display with a 29G sump does not need some massive amount of return flow. I would want maybe 400 GPH or so. Higher, maybe 500 - 600 if you had a bigger sump.

If you need a new pump, something like a Panworld 100 PX would work well.

[NaH2Ofreak]

Man, there really should be another reefer (or many) in the Burbank, Ca area that could come help this guy out for free. Is there a local club?

Dennis