DSB vs Media Reactor

[L8ndeb]

I have posted this in two forums to try to get as many responses as possible. Some things have changed since I decided to get back into the hobby. One thing is whether or not to incorporate a DSB into the new tank.
Please somebody correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding that a DSB help to convert nitrates to harmless gases that would naturally escape the tank. I have read that BioPellets will do virtually the same thing.
So my question is: DSB or not? If not, how do you all with BB keep your pod/fauna supply up?
It would seem to me with a BB tank, worms, pods, etc that normally live in the sand would not have a habitat to survive in. In addition, I would guess that a BB tank would not be an enviroment for Gobys, sand sifting stars, cucumbers, crabs, etc. If that is the case, do you all just accept that and just not keep them? TIA

[Mavrk]

Not everyone without a DSB has BB. Many just have an inch of sand or something similar. A DSB takes a while before it will achieve what you want. It is just another tool to help out.

Worms and pods live in the rocks. Also, if you have a fuge with macroalgae, then love to live in there. You can also just put the DSB in a fuge for that matter if you want it. There are many choices.

Yes, sand dwelling animals are not put into BB tanks. But most things just don't need it.

My question to you would be... What do you like in terms of appearance? To me that is the most important. The rest can be figured out based on that.

[L8ndeb]

Mavrk, you are probably right. Decide what I like. I like the idea of having enough sand in the tank to satisfy sand dwellers and sifters. Frankly, I did not like the idea of my tank crashing due to the DSB. If I can do a tank with enough sand to have sand inhabitants, and not have a DSB, that I probably what I would want. I guess if that is the case, I need a media reactor.

[Mavrk]

DSB's do not crash a tank unless you decide to stir up the whole thing, but why would you do that?

If you like the look of less sand, then go with that. You do not need a media reactor per se. If you have a skimmer and do water changes, that is generally all you really need. You can run carbon or GFO to help more of course (which work best in reactors). If you have a fuge, you can put Macroalgae in there and that will help too. You can do a remote DSB for yet more benefit. You can live without all of these with no problems. They are just more tools to help and fall under the "nice to haves". BTW, forget the bioballs. Trying to keep them clean is a pain. If you don't clean them, they just add to the nitrates.

I think sand sifting seastars can be difficult, but the rest of your list should be okay. The reason i say this is that they can decimate a sandbed pretty quickly, then starve. Personally I like all those little critters living in there. But I do have a DSB, so that might just be my bias.

The one thing I would say is that if you don't go DSB or BB, then don't put too much sand. I can't remember right now how much sand that is, but I remember discussions of problems with sand that was not shallow and not deep. I'll have to try and find that info.

[L8ndeb]

Hi Mavrk,

Again, thanks for the response.

My last tank, I ran a DSB for about 10 years. Had a refugium, cal reactor, typical cleanup crew, etc. I am fairly familar with a DSB. My reference to DSB's causing tank crashing was posts from years ago. Some say it caused it, others not. I did over state the comment, did not mean to imply that DSB causes doom. My experience proves otherwise (at least for 10 years!).
I guess I'm still asking is a DSB "old school" and media reactor with BioPellets "new school".
BTW, I was not referring to BioBalls, I am referring to BioPellets. From what I understand, it is a form of vodka dosing (carbon dosing) done through a media reactor.

[Mavrk]

The understanding of DSB has actually come a long way. It is neither old school nor new school. However, the remote DSB seems to be used more often than it used to. BioPellets is definitely in the new school category. I figured you meant the pellets, but just wanted to throw the BioBalls thing out there as definitely old school.

The pellets accomplish the same thing as vodka dosing. It is just a carbon source. It seems a lot of people have jumped on the vodka dosing bandwagon, and many are doing the biopellets to 'automate' this more.

I guess my next question would be... what are you planning on keeping? SPS? LPS? Softies? FOWLR?

[L8ndeb]

Ya know, that is what we are trying to hammer out. Frankly, I think I'm gonna attempt to keep LPS, Softies, and fish. Last tank was softies and fish. Was successful with that tank. So I figure adding the LPS would add a little challenge and color.

[Mavrk]

LPS is a good next step and can look really cool. I would say you're fine with a skimmer and water changes, then once you are stocked you can see if you need more. A lot of it is going to depend on your bioload.

That said, I usually recommend running GFO from the start to leech out the phosphates from the rocks. This of course is best done in a reactor. Like I said... nice to have.

[L8ndeb]

Media Reactor is on the list. I have also upgraded my skimmer to an Octopus XP 2000. Got a HOB refugium for the sump. I think I've got it down to LPS, softies, fish, and a sandbed. Don't know if I want to go DSB yet.
I'm also still knocking around the light issue. On the 60gal custom I had with the softies, I had 2 175w MH and 2 48" VHO Actinics. This new tank will be considerably deeper (32") so I have another thread out there getting opinions. Seems most think at least two
250W MH or one 400w MH. If I go 14K on the color, I probably could eliminate the Actinics.
Lastly, my return situation. The last tank had returns on each end with SeaSwirls. I have seen the Vortechs, koralias, and a plumbed setup. I like the Vortechs, but my god, who can afford them? Also with the Vortechs, when it is producing waves, wouldn't you water level have to be so low your 32" deep tank is now a 26" deep tank?

[tzzhc4]

Originally Posted by L8ndeb

I like the Vortechs, but my god, who can afford them? Also with the Vortechs, when it is producing waves, wouldn't you water level have to be so low your 32" deep tank is now a 26" deep tank?

I have had Vortechs in my 200gal SPS tank since Vortech pumps hit the market. I liked the idea of NOT not having electricity in my tank and also keeping the heat outside the tank. The 12V battery backup was icing on the cake. They are not cheap but they are worth the money. The oscillating wave I can get going with my Vortechs is under an inch.

[Mavrk]

Is this for the 60 gal you have listed?

Don't forget a little pump (maybe miniJet 440) and control valve for the reactor. I am not an expert on skimmers, so can't help much there. With LPS, the lights don't have to be as strong as with SPS. However, getting good lights allows you the flexibility later. I personally run T5's. Others can help with lights better too.

As for flow, the return and the flow from powerheads are really two different things. The return pump brings the water up to from the sump. Choosing the power of this one has more to do with the amount of flow you want in your sump and whether you will branch it off to run reactors, etc. Just make sure that you don't overpower your return pump compared to the rating of the overflow drain. For instance, I see a lot of people with 1" pipes for the drain as about pumps with 900 gph flow with a 4' head. The overflow would only be rated for 700 (or is it 600), so you would have to dial it down or run unnecessary risks.

For flow in the tank, that depends on budget and personal choice. Closed loops are good at hiding stuff, but I have never used them. I was using the "older" Koralias for 3 years and just now decided to bite the bullet and get a Vortech. I have to say that the Koralias treated me well, but the Vortech is simply a different beast. The undertow is amazing, the different modes are cool, and the control is really nice.

As for the wave, the Vortechs have a flow control, so you can dial them down. That said, if you were running an MP40 in a 20 gallon tank like you see in the videos at full stream, the wave is huge. On my 4 foot long 90 gallon tank, the wave is about 3/4" at the surface. My overflow keeps the water about 1" below the surface right at the base of the black on the top, so I don't see the water. When I use the wave, it basically goes from the bottom of the slits in my overflow to the top portion of the slits.

I only have the one MP40 and it is plenty of flow. However, I liked it so much that I wanted to open up its potential more and ordered a second one today. The MP10 for the back is next, but that won't be for a while

As with most things in the tank, over the years you will upgrade certain things or decide to change how you do things. When you are first setting the tank up, I would start where your budget allows.

Oh, one piece of equipment that I got early on was an ATO (auto top off) unit. I have to say, of all the things I purchased, that is the one that has been the most useful.

Some of the things I would recommend besides a skimmer and powerheads are an ATO, a RO/DI unit for water, a refractometer (plus calibration fluid), and a QT (a must IMO).

Keep asking questions. I can't wait to see your setup grow.

[L8ndeb]

All this setup is for the new tank I'm building. 30 x 30 x 32 cube. My 60 was in the old house, and I just don't have a place for it in the new house. I'll probably use it as a quarantine tank.
I have an ATO. I built a Nurce years ago, and it still works well. I also have an RO/DI unit. I will have to order a new probe for my Ph monitor. I think I will trash the salinity monitor (old and been out of water for years).
I've got a couple of Mag 12's, one of which I will use for the return pump. My only concern with the Vortechs is the noise. I heard comments that they are not quiet. Also, I was wondering with the undertow they produce, would that be a problem with sand in a sandbed? I wonder if I could get away with two MP10's? Probably not. Lastly, can the Vortechs be run with a Reef Keeper control unit?
Thanks Mav for answering my questions. Slowly I getting back up on the hobby.

[Mavrk]

Originally Posted by L8ndeb

All this setup is for the new tank I'm building. 30 x 30 x 32 cube. My 60 was in the old house, and I just don't have a place for it in the new house. I'll probably use it as a quarantine tank.
I have an ATO. I built a Nurce years ago, and it still works well. I also have an RO/DI unit. I will have to order a new probe for my Ph monitor. I think I will trash the salinity monitor (old and been out of water for years).
I've got a couple of Mag 12's, one of which I will use for the return pump. My only concern with the Vortechs is the noise. I heard comments that they are not quiet. Also, I was wondering with the undertow they produce, would that be a problem with sand in a sandbed? I wonder if I could get away with two MP10's? Probably not. Lastly, can the Vortechs be run with a Reef Keeper control unit?
Thanks Mav for answering my questions. Slowly I getting back up on the hobby.

Glad to help. I was away from the hobby for a while myself, so I remember what it was like when everything seemed to be different.

I would say that two MP10w ES Vortechs would be great actually. Be sure they are the wireless (i.e. MP10w not MP10). Three MP10s would be perfect, but you can always start with two because they would provide enough flow with the return taking care of the back of the tank. The third one would make the different modes work to their full potential (drooling at the thought of three Vortechs). The only reason to get the MP40's would be that you then have them for a later upgrade. But they would be dialed way down for use in your tank.

You speak of noise, but have a mag12 running. My mag7 is the loudest thing in my tank. Speaking of the mag12, you are going to have to dial that way down with only one return. The Vortechs have a little whine to them, but not really noisy. At full power, they can be noticed more. But I think the MP10 has less of that anyway.

They are fine with the sandbed. You place them really high up in the tank. The undertow pulls along the sand and is great for getting the flow through the sand that you want anyway. New sand might get blown a little bit, but that is true of all powerheads. At least with the Vortech, you can lower the power. If you had one on each side, this should be easy to deal with. I have a 4" sandbed of sugarfine sand and it doesn't move.

I don't know about the controller. I know there were things in development last year, but I would ask EcoTech (they have a forum here, but an e-mail might be faster). I guess the advantage of a controller would to be able to change modes at different times???

Sorry if this sounds like I am selling the Vortechs I just really am impressed with mine. Like I said, the Koralias provide a nice broad flow as well at a much lower price. I have never used the controlled ones that can do waves. But you don't buy a Vortech for the wave or to leave it in continuous mode. It is more about the different modes and how great they are for the tank.

You can also look at Tunze powerheads. People here love them.

Keep asking questions, it is all part of the process.

FWIW, my first piece of unsolicited advice is that once you put get your tank setup with water sand and rocks. Put your first fish in a QT. That way it is ready to go in the tank when your tank is ready. I see too many people saying that their tank is ready for the first fish and asking what kind to get. When I tell them to QT it for 6 weeks they almost never listen because they have been waiting for their tank to be ready and want one in there ASAP. Then come the questions later about it not eating, how to cure ich, etc.

I figure a month to fully cycle, a week with snails, a week with shrimp, that is about 6 weeks minimum for the tank to be ready. If your cycle is faster, then you will be going through the algae stages anyway and that is easier to control without a fish to feed in there. If the tank isn't ready by 6 weeks, then a longer QT is even better

[L8ndeb]

Hi Mav,

I remember about quarantine. I will not even consider a fish until I have stabilized the tank. I'm am not one to be impatient. The rule of thumb in reefing is/was "Nothing good happens quickly, but most thing bad will". I also remember the cycling process. My first tank I cycled with a piece or raw shrimp. Second was with the liverock.
Speaking of liverock.......Tens years ago, I ordered my liverock from a retailer who advertised the rock as being flown direct from Fiji to your airport of choice cargo terminal. Now, this may have been BS, but when I got the rock, I was amazed at how much was still alive, and how WET the rock was. Do you know of any retailers that still do this?
I think I will go with the Vortechs (you only live once!). Have to check prices on the 10's vs the 40's.

[Mavrk]

10w ES's are about 260 bucks. How many you thinking of getting? I think you will really like them. If you get three, I think you will love it (and I will be jealous). But two is fine.

I figured you were a QT person, but just thought I would suggest starting it early since you have to wait anyway. It also breaks the monotony of watching live rock (which is really best viewed at night with a flashlight).

There are several places that you can order rock from. You have a choice of going all live rock, getting all base rock and 1 live rock, or any combination in between. The best liverock is not being sent out anymore because of the disaster over in Fiji. But there are plenty of alternatives. I'll see what I can dig up in terms of vendors to use, but there should be some opinions on this if you post it in the reef section.

[Mavrk]

I just wanted to add:

I don't want you to think the Vortechs are silent. The motor is on the outside of the tank. But it is not disturbing to me at all. If it were in my bedroom, that might be different. My Koralia pumps were silent.

[L8ndeb]

Thanks for the info Mav. Regarding the Vortechs, I think I'm gonna be stuck getting the 40's only because the glass is 1/2" thick. I thought I read somewhere for glass that thick, you must use the 40"s. As far as noise, the tank will be in the living room. I'm a little afraid of pump noise while watching a movie, tv, etc. I would HATE spending that kind of money and having a noise problem.
When I'm ready for the live rock, I will post in the Reef Discussion forum and see what pops up. I have been posting in a couple of different forums with dufferent questions but no responses. It's kinda frustrating. That is why I'm greatful for your info.

[Mavrk]

You won't have a problem with pump noise for TV use (except maybe from your mag).

Bummer about the thickness. The max it is rated for is 3/8". Are you sure it is 1/2"? My 90 gallon has 3/8" glass.

You could start with one MP40 and see how it is with your return. You have nothing in there, so it would be easy to add another one later if you needed to. But you could just use the one MP40 and some Koralia's or Tunze pumps. Or you can forget the Vortech and get the Koralia Wave thing (or tunze). I guess it all depends on budget.

[L8ndeb]

Yeah, budget and patience! Looked on their website. The 10's are rated up to 3/8" glass, while the 40's up to 3/4" glass. Better start saving. I'll ask for one for Christmas!
Since my tank is tall, all my reading has told me 1/2" minimum, so 1/2" it will be.
Ya know, my mag12 wasn't all that noisy to me. It was outside the sump, in the cabinet under the DP tank. Never had a problem with that running.

[Mavrk]

Yeah, I was thinking about the height after I posted. I would just get some koralias to start with. They are not expensive unless you get the wave control.

[L8ndeb]

Ya know, one thing I have taught my wife, is get the best to start with. So she keeps telling me "It's our house. If you are gonna build a tank, get what works and looks the best." Yeah wifey!! So vortechs it will be.
Next thing is planning the sump and return. I'm thinking with the Vortechs, the Mag12 (should be enough water turnover for a 130gal water column, huh?) with a simple return system should work. Last tank had SeaSwirls. I don't think I will need them. Comments?
The sump I will build out of acrylic. Basic design, space for the skimmer, baffles, with room for the hang on refugium, and areas for reactor intake and return. I think I would have to be a little more elaborate with the design to incorporate the refugium IN the sump. I think with the amount of water turnover, a "quiet" area would have to be made. Unless there is something simple out there, I just don't want to go that route. Beside, the hang-on gives me the option of removing it if I have to for maintenance and repairs.