Ammonia reads 0.25, how harmful is it to inhabitants?

[pw154]

My tank is 6 weeks old. I used established live rock from a mature system and did not have much of an initial cycle. After a couple of weeks I had 0 ammonia, nitrites, and nitrate readings. So I went and put in two ocellaris clowns.

Readings were still good so a week later I put in a royal gramma and a small clean up crew of 5 turbo snails and 1 cleaner shrimp. The fish are pretty small, around 1.5-2 inches long. Everyone seems to be doing OK, eating well. The snails are active and so is the cleaner shrimp. I feed lightly once a day.

A few days ago I decided to check my parameters and noticed that the ammonia has jumped to 0.25 according to the API test kit. Nitrites are 0 and Nitrate reads maybe around 5 ppm. So I've been checking every day and ammonia is holding steady at 0.25. I am surprised that I am getting an ammonia reading considering I am using established rock and my bio load is low. I am also running a good skimmer.

Is it possible that my test kit is giving me a false reading? Wouldn't the fish and especially inverts have not survived if ammonia were present? My rocks have also changed color from coralline pink/purple to mostly green, but there is no significant HA yet... any thoughts?

[James404]

Probably added more of a bioload then your nitrifying bacteria can handle at this point. It can be deadly for sure. You should do small water changes daily to keep the ammonia and nitrite down and continue to check your levels. Probably want to take things a little slower when adding to your tank.

[PaxRoma]

your cycle has crashed. Do water vigilantly to make sure ammonia doesn't rise. Do it until you do not see anymore ammonia.

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by PaxRoma

your cycle has crashed. Do water vigilantly to make sure ammonia doesn't rise. Do it until you do not see anymore ammonia.

OK. That's a little strong. Nothing has "crashed". As James said, you probably added a little more bioload than the tank was ready for at the time. Ammonia of .25 is not poisonous to the fish. It's not good for them, but it won't harm them long term. When they ship from wherever they are caught, they live in a bag of water for a couple days and I assure you the ammonia is higher than .25 in that bag. Nitrite is more poisonous than ammonia, so keep an eye on that too, but do not panic if you see a rise in that, it is part of the nitrogen cycle, nitrate being the end. Water changes won't hurt, but again, there's no need to panic.

[pw154]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

OK. That's a little strong. Nothing has "crashed". As James said, you probably added a little more bioload than the tank was ready for at the time. Ammonia of .25 is not poisonous to the fish. It's not good for them, but it won't harm them long term. When they ship from wherever they are caught, they live in a bag of water for a couple days and I assure you the ammonia is higher than .25 in that bag. Nitrite is more poisonous than ammonia, so keep an eye on that too, but do not panic if you see a rise in that, it is part of the nitrogen cycle, nitrate being the end. Water changes won't hurt, but again, there's no need to panic.

OK, thanks. What about adding seachem prime to the water? Would this be beneficial?

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by pw154

OK, thanks. What about adding seachem prime to the water? Would this be beneficial?

I am against adding any chems to the water. In your case especially. Oftentimes they create more problems than they solve. If you're really worried about it, do a 50% water change and forget it.

[PaxRoma]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Nitrite is more poisonous than ammonia,

Please research before advising a fellow hobbyist. If you are not sure, just say it is your opinion. Sometimes the wrong advice can be worse than the situation itself.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

[PaxRoma]

0.25ppm is not gravely dangerous. But the concern is that , when ANY amount of ammonia appears, it will continue to rise. Therefore, a vigilant water change is a safeguard way to minimize this effect. Please read Dr.Farley's excellent article regarding ammonia here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

If you don't have time to read, this is straight from his article which may answer your question:
"My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes. Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment.."

[pw154]

Originally Posted by PaxRoma

0.25ppm is not gravely dangerous. But the concern is that , when ANY amount of ammonia appears, it will continue to rise. Therefore, a vigilant water change is a safeguard way to minimize this effect. Please read Dr.Farley's excellent article regarding ammonia here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

If you don't have time to read, this is straight from his article which may answer your question:
"My suggestion is to take some sort of corrective action if the total ammonia rises above 0.1 ppm. This suggestion is also made by Stephen Spotte in his authoritative text, Captive Seawater Fishes. Values in excess of 0.25 ppm total ammonia may require immediate treatment.."

That article was very helpful, thanks!

[steelhead77]

OK. Lesson learned. Thanks for the article. The reading I had done says the opposite, but I won't argue with R.H.F. on this subject. Still, how do fish survive for days at a time in a bag full of water that undoubtedly has high concentrations of ammonia in it?

I still stand by my advice however to not use any chems (more harm than good) and do a 50% water change.

[PaxRoma]

Originally Posted by steelhead77

Still, how do fish survive for days at a time in a bag full of water that undoubtedly has high concentrations of ammonia in it?

ah, this is explained as followed my friend:
In a shipping bag, the fish produce wastes primarily as ammonia and carbon dioxide. The effect of carbon dioxide is that it lowers the pH of the water (via carbonic acid intermediate).
So, the pH in a shipping bag is much lower than the natural pH in a display tank. The lower the pH, the less toxic ammonia is. This is explained in R.H.F chart: the lower the pH the less free ammonia it is compared to ammonium ion.
So in a shipping bag, the toxic effect of ammonia is less than that compared to the same ppm of ammonia in a display tank. This lessen effect is coupled with the fact that the shipping bag is super saturated with oxygen. How does oxygen supersaturation minimize the toxic effect of ammonia?
One of the poison effect of ammonia is that it hampers the delivery of oxygen through the fish gills, but since the water is super saturated with oxygen, this difficulty is overridden. An analogous example is when a patient has difficulty breathing, what does one of the thing the ER doc give the patient? Oxygen mask- simply, to deliver more oxygen to him.
When the bag is opened, the oxygen supersaturation is gone, the carbon dioxide is equilibrated with the air, and the pH start to rise. The clock start ticking because the two protective factors that protect the fish from the poisoning effect of ammonia is now gone.

[Jstdv8]

now THAT is some interesting stuff right there.
How does the bag get so much oxygen? do they put it in there out of a presurized bottle like a helium ballon?

[webos]

I've seen LFS just use a airstone put it in the water for a little bit and then tie off the bag.

[steelhead77]

Originally Posted by PaxRoma

ah, this is explained as followed my friend:
In a shipping bag, the fish produce wastes primarily as ammonia and carbon dioxide. The effect of carbon dioxide is that it lowers the pH of the water (via carbonic acid intermediate).
So, the pH in a shipping bag is much lower than the natural pH in a display tank. The lower the pH, the less toxic ammonia is. This is explained in R.H.F chart: the lower the pH the less free ammonia it is compared to ammonium ion.
So in a shipping bag, the toxic effect of ammonia is less than that compared to the same ppm of ammonia in a display tank. This lessen effect is coupled with the fact that the shipping bag is super saturated with oxygen. How does oxygen supersaturation minimize the toxic effect of ammonia?
One of the poison effect of ammonia is that it hampers the delivery of oxygen through the fish gills, but since the water is super saturated with oxygen, this difficulty is overridden. An analogous example is when a patient has difficulty breathing, what does one of the thing the ER doc give the patient? Oxygen mask- simply, to deliver more oxygen to him.
When the bag is opened, the oxygen supersaturation is gone, the carbon dioxide is equilibrated with the air, and the pH start to rise. The clock start ticking because the two protective factors that protect the fish from the poisoning effect of ammonia is now gone.

Thanks for the lesson and the non-condesending way of presenting it. I appreciate it.