|
|
|
10/10/2010, 06:45 PM
|
#251 | |
|
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change Last edited by CalmSeasQuest; 10/10/2010 at 06:59 PM. |
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 07:37 PM
|
#252 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 57
|
"Just what I have been waiting for. Now that we can figure out PAR values for a single pendant at various depths, could someone elaborate or direct us on ideal PAR values for optimal growth of hard/soft corals -- generally speaking? Like, at what point do PAR values begin to scorch and at what level are they not enough -- for hard vs. soft corals. This would help me to determine percentage of blue/white to maintain in my 39G CAD Pro using the AI pendant. "
Talked to a tech at one of the most respected US coral farms on just this issue. He asked not to be quoted in print  . The gist of what he said was, "hit or miss". For example, you might even find strains within species that adapted to relatively higher or lower light levels than you might have expected. Of course, he argues that farm raised corals will tolerate wider variables than wild-caught.
|
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 07:39 PM
|
#253 | ||
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 57
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 07:46 PM
|
#254 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
In the end, I went with AI due to build quality, Cree dies, US Made and Licensed under the Orbitec patent and dimming (the ability to control each color channel was and is a significant issue for me.) I then later added the Maxspect over my small frag tank due to my lessor light needs and cost of acquisition (Maxspects were cheaper prior to gaining a US distributor and AI optics would have been tough to manage on a tank 8" deep.) Now there are many more Chinese one-off units available. I'm also watching a unit made by a company in Israel named Orphek that's making a 120W fixture with 16K white LEDs that looks promising (sans dimming unfortunately.) Advances are coming rapidly in reef lighting, RGB is interesting if they can get the power output high enough, Plasma shows great promise once the coloration issues are resolved (far too yellow at higher output.) OLEDS are being developed that may someday be powerful enough for reef use... We've now got plenty of PAR, with even more efficiency gains coming rapidly. With some fine tuning of the spectral output - I believe LEDs will render MHs completely obsolete within 5 years.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change |
|
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 08:34 PM
|
#255 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,178
|
Tom,
I have a 65 gal (36x20x20) with 2- blue sol units at 12" above tank. SPS are upper 10" with acans and chalice on bottom.Currently running 50% B & 35% W. I have a few newer acans that have red buried in the brown somwhere. Does it take awhile for LPS to adjust to color or is changing %W to %B the way to balance visual color. Running all acans on bottom. Will get a meter so I can talk in PAR and at least map out PAR vs % color. Any guess on a reasonable % target for 250-150 PAR. Last edited by drtrash; 10/10/2010 at 08:41 PM. |
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 09:36 PM
|
#256 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
I hesitate to give advice on SOL Blue and their 70 degree optics, as I still have the SOL Whites which use 40 degree lenses (my Sol Blue upgrade is due in this week.) That said, here's a few thoughts... With your lights raised 12", I would think you're in the ballpark. You can try backing both down a bit and watch a while, then slowly increase (hopefully after you've gained access to a PAR meter.) IME, a bit too little light won't kill anything, but too much will. For reference, I replaced about 200 watts of MH/T5s with about 70 watts of LEDs (2 AIs running at about 50%) and initially bleached everything. The SPS on the top of the tank quickly bleached, and the LPS on the bottom went pale. The SPS that survived (few  ), have taken a long time to recover. The LPS bounced back quickly (a few weeks.) My greatest coloration problem is with Red SPS (ORA Red Planet is my challenge piece.) I'm able to get great coloration out of LPS, including Acans. Here are a few photos of LPS loving LED life...    I'm still learning the PAR needs of specific corals - It's compounded by the fact PAR meters don't do a great job of measuring the very blue spectrum. i.e. I've had SPS thrive under 500 PAR MH, yet quickly bleach-out under 450 LED. I also was experimenting with MB7 and carbon dosing at the time, which added another variable in determining what was impacting coloration. Once I get my hands on the SOL Blue upgrade later this week, I'll post photos and PAR measurements that should help you fine tune.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change Last edited by CalmSeasQuest; 10/10/2010 at 09:57 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 09:43 PM
|
#257 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 57
|
Quote:
These guys will now customize with a variety of whites and color mix and even some violets now in the 420 range. My tanks won't be deeper than 24".At the higher end, I like dimmable and customizable, but will wait. I kind of like the coverage and flexibility of the tube-type systems also. The Orphek unit is interesting -- a real flame thrower. Last edited by ast; 10/10/2010 at 09:48 PM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 10:37 PM
|
#258 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,035
|
calmseasquest... what camera and lens are you using?
|
|
|
|
|
10/10/2010, 11:11 PM
|
#259 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,178
|
Those colors are reassuring that I need to be more patient with acans. What is par#'s for bottom of tank with your acans? My purple bonsai is a light purple but it was before with T-5, Red planet was more pink so I moved it down about half way, still faded but more green on new growth. What % are you using with acans. Not sure how to compare sol white with sol blue. I think sol white is 2:1 (W:B vs 2:1 B:W) Not sure if that makes more red spectrum available or not.
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 05:57 AM
|
#260 | ||
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
Quote:
I've been 100% LED for about a year, and I'm still learning and adjusting, looking for the optimal levels (as are most that made the early jump to LEDs.) I adjust intensities every couple weeks, and often rotate stock between the DT and FT to see what changes occur between the AI and Maxspect LED coloration. At present, I'm at 36%W/100%B on 2 SOL White units raised 17.5" ATWL. My Acans are 100~150 PAR. My Purple Bonsai also lightened significantly but is steadily recovering from it's near-death bleaching event. As for Red Planet, mine is mostly green with just a hint of pink, although it is just now beginning to improve. Coloration has been the only issue (aside from the initial bleaching due to my ignorance of the PAR output of LEDs.) I've experienced great growth rates from both SPS and LPS. Each time I've lowered light output, coloration has improved overall (although that could be anecdotal and a result of the corals continuing to recover.) I'm watching for the point that no further improvement is gained at lesser light levels, then I'll very slowly work on increasing intensity. As for the Red spectrum, there's much debate regarding whats actually used in the photosynthesis process, vs reflective light. Some studies show red actually retards growth and coloration (most red is absorbed before it reaches the reef.) Some suggest that UV might be the answer, but based on what I've read, Corals pigmentation response to UV is clear, and does not improve coloration. There was even a recent study suggesting that some Zooxanthellae may use IR... At present, the answer is unclear. My "best guess" is along the lines of what AI has done with the SOL Blue pucks, combining the CW/B/RB. I've also seen some new testing using neutral white, adding in a bit of red and cyan that initially looks interesting (reflective) - it's just too soon to know the impact on growth and coloration. I have ordered optics and a variety of newly released color LEDS (red, cyan, near UV...) for the Maxspect that will allow me to continue "playing" with color variations. This is both the boon and curse of LEDs. We're on the cutting edge, just past alpha testing. We know they are hugely efficient at growing corals, we just need to better understand the spectral needs and do some fine tuning to gain the maximum coloration. I expect we'll learn much more over the next couple of years as the DIY pioneers uncover the answers.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change |
||
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 07:05 AM
|
#261 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 1,161
|
Wow, I missed a lot over the weekend. I am anxiously awaiting my sol blue upgrade. I really hope I can get more pop out of my corals.
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 07:42 AM
|
#262 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vista, Ca
Posts: 146
|
ive been following this thread for a while and figured ide jump in and ask this question as it seems many have danced around it but never really hit the nail on the head.
1) Is Par=Par? By that i mean is 200Par from MH the same as 200Par from a LED setup? If not, why so? 2)What is a good par to shoot for with LED's when trying to grow SPS? I see a lot of ideas but anyone actually done any studies or have some success and can post their results?
__________________
Tank: 55gal, 20gal sump, Bubble Magus NAC7, 2 x mp40's, 6x24W T5 |
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 08:19 AM
|
#263 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
a) PAR meters underestimate the amount of PAR emitted by many LEDs. The error rate increases with the "bluer" the light gets. Sanjay had told me a good estimation was ~15% - I beleive it might actually be higher (20%~25%) b) LEDs are very efficient at producing PAR, with the vast majority of the light being in the 400-700nm range however - to our "eye", at equal PAR LEDs don't look nearly as "bright" as MH or T5. This results in the hobbyist increasing the LED output trying to match the "appearance" of their previous lights...and cooking most everything in their tank (I did this twice.) I believe these two issues combine to create many of the initial coloration complaints from those switching to LEDs. 2) This is tricky - lots of variable. Different species of SPS demand different amounts of PAR. Water quality plays the largest role with water movement and light spectrum also being a factor. In the most general of terms, I'm presently shooting for measured PAR of 100~150 on the substrate and 350~400 on the top SPS shelves. This is much less than I initially believed ideal, and my opinion likely will evolve over time as I gain additional experience with my LEDs. A few caveats...Please note, my current tank is new, having only been up for slightly more than a year. As a result - I have more variables than a long-established tank. Most importantly, I'm certainly no expert on lighting or marine biology and have no formal education in either field. My opinions are just that, opinions and are subjective based on my non-scientific observations. So please take my comments and conclusions with a grain of salt. I'm just a hobbyist who's enjoying the learning curve.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change Last edited by CalmSeasQuest; 10/11/2010 at 08:31 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 09:27 AM
|
#264 |
|
Premium Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 65
|
Tom, love the humility, but really enjoy and respect your perspective! As I mentioned earlier, I switched from 150w MH to my current Cadlights system - it has been 3 months and I have not had any problems with bleaching. I'm sure my PAR levels under the MH were not even close to the Cadlights...how quickly did you have problems with bleaching when you went to LEDs? I have some red / orange montiporas I think that have maintained their color...just wondering if they may fade...I have a bright green montipora and a bright blue acropora that really pop under the LEDs, I think you mentioned earlier that you had no problems with blues and greens.
I will be setting up my AI light later this week, 12" over the water, and will measure PAR again to see if it changes the amount of PAR spread. |
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 10:11 AM
|
#265 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
Tank Size, Aquascaping and Coral Placement - Your tank is larger and deeper than mine and your aquascaping places most of the corals much deeper in the tank. Some of my SPS were sitting literally 3" below the surface of the water. That combined with the fact that at one point in acclimation I had 2 AI's blasting away at 70%W/100%B (1000+ PAR) AND when the Gen2s were first introduced, the hanging kit was not yet available. As a result, my AIs were sitting on top of the tank using the rail feet just 3" above the water...a combination that spelled doom for much of my SPS. Secondly and in support of the first thought - The Cadlights LED fixture uses 120 low wattage (1w) LEDs without any optics. With the native 120 degree output, you had far less PAR reaching your livestock than 2 AI's with 40 degree lenses beaming PAR into my defenseless corals. It's taken me almost a year, and the loss of many prized-possession corals to learn that when it comes to LEDs and PAR - More is not necessarily better. I'm looking forward to seeing your SOL Blues raised higher - I'm hopeful it will work well.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change Last edited by CalmSeasQuest; 10/11/2010 at 10:18 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 10:49 AM
|
#266 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: S. Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,178
|
Very little info out there to compare sol white with sol lue. 50% B on one cannot be equal to other with the 2:1 ratio of B to W flipped. I am going to borrow a PAR meter today. Thanks for all the info, hopefully meter will help with the patience becasue until you actually see the PAR #'s all bets are off.
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 12:30 PM
|
#267 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
A few of us have SOL Blue upgrades on the way. I'll take side-by-side comparative photos (although it will be difficult to match them at any setting other than 100% due to the cross channel controls) and conduct PAR testing for all to see. That is unless the new VDM module for the Apex ships soon, in which case I can duplicate the exact power and color settings between both. One difference will remain - A new SOL Blue fixtures has 70 degree perimeter optics, whereas the SOL Whites use 40 degrees. That said, it should still be a good comparison.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change |
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 03:48 PM
|
#268 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 499
|
My 2 Sol blues arrived todayyyy, I will post some pictures tomorrow when I have them mounted. I did a test run to figure height with the 70 degree optics and I get a full spread on my 90 gallon @ 9-12inches using 2 units turned sideways. I am curious if the 70 degree optics will cause some hot spots where the 70's and 40's meet; time will tell.
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 03:58 PM
|
#269 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change |
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 04:36 PM
|
#270 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 251
|
Quote:
I started lights out at 90%W & 100%B....wow...corals didn't like that. I'm down to 65%W & 100%B.....up from a previous 50%W & 100% Blue. I think I'm settling in somewhere around 60-65%W. I have 8 modules over an 8 foot 300 gallon.
__________________
Darren Current Tank Info: 300 gal *******, 8 AI Sol White, 100 g lps tank tied to main system w/ 2 Radions,BK SM300, Apex, Geo 624 Ca, Avast kalk stirrer, BRS jumbo GFO, BRS Jumbo Carbon, lots of ColeParmer peristaltic pumps, 2MP60ES, 2MP40ES, 250 gal MRC custom sump |
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 08:33 PM
|
#271 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 130
|
CalmSeasQuest,
I have a question. I am running 5 gen 1 modules, at 100 blue 30 white. I am getting Sol Blue upgrades this week. What intensity should I initially run? I was thinking 45% blue and 10% white to start. What do you think? |
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 09:05 PM
|
#272 |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 57
|
"I started lights out at 90%W & 100%B....wow...corals didn't like that. I'm down to 65%W & 100%B.....up from a previous 50%W & 100% Blue. I think I'm settling in somewhere around 60-65%W."
Darren, What drew you to AI? Why run 3 watt LEDS at a fraction of 100% and not 1 watt LEDs at 100%? TIA. |
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 09:14 PM
|
#273 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change |
|
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 09:36 PM
|
#274 | ||
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,230
|
Quote:
Your observations mirror mine (just on a much larger and deeper scale ) I think you got yours the day before mine arrived. I recall posting in your thread when you received your first 4 AI's, remembering how bright they looked (little did we know.)Based on your comments, I think I'll try moving my Red Planet and Bonsai deeper in tank. Quote:
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the Gen1 specs (If memory serves, they were a little lower power?) I'm I afraid can't offer much advice based on their light output. If you'd like to describe your tank and inhabitants, we can try and work it from that perspective. The best solution is to locate a PAR meter and map your tank under your current lighting - then use that as a guide when setting up the SOL Blues. I hope to receive my SOL Blue upgrades later this week and get photos and PAR testing completed this weekend, so maybe you'll have better data for your decision. Hopefully one of our SOL Blue users will chime in with a better recommendation. If all else fails - less is better to begin with.
__________________
-Tom The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw Current Tank Info: 96X30" 270Gal, Kessil 360WEs, BK250 Double Cone, 400 gal ASW station with continuous water change |
||
|
|
|
|
10/11/2010, 09:54 PM
|
#275 | |
|
Registered Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 251
|
Quote:
They are made in the US....better yet....Ames, IA; where I went to college. AI modules are just quality...pick one up, hold them....they are solid, well built, and clean.
__________________
Darren Current Tank Info: 300 gal *******, 8 AI Sol White, 100 g lps tank tied to main system w/ 2 Radions,BK SM300, Apex, Geo 624 Ca, Avast kalk stirrer, BRS jumbo GFO, BRS Jumbo Carbon, lots of ColeParmer peristaltic pumps, 2MP60ES, 2MP40ES, 250 gal MRC custom sump |
|
|
|
|
 |
| Tags |
| aqua illumination, aquaillumination, cree, led, leds, maxspect, par |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| LED lighting and PAR measurements -- Advice? | pdelcast | Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment | 15 | 07/27/2008 09:41 PM |
| 54 Watt T5 Bulb PAR measurements | Ken668 | Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment | 23 | 08/17/2006 07:42 PM |
