Controllers, Controllers and more Controllers!!

[crank2211]

Originally Posted by Shard

The issues I see are related to what is not there instead of what is. Network connectivity comes to mind first. Based on the information available at the website, if you want networking capability, you have to modify the firmware yourself. That is after you buy the $100 networking module, which brings total investment to $300. For $100 more you get more features, in both hardware and software.

The example program files included for the wifi module only give you very basic information, with limited control. Any level of advanced function, you have to program it yourself. It doesn't even have graphing capability so you can see the pH or temp over time, nor does it appear to have email notifications. Programming those functions from scratch is not a 'couple of hours' type of activity. That will take a while.

You've got some good points here Shard. I just wanted to chime in and bring to light a development effort I've been working on now for a couple months with regards to the ReefAngel. I believe I've addressed most of the issues you mentioned with a client application I've built.

So far I've got:

- Live parameter display
- Advanced graphing
- Email/SMS notifications based off temperature thresholds
- Remote Relay toggling and profiling
- Parameter viewing online via USB (Meaning you don't need the wifi module to view parameters through a web browser. Controlling the relays is still a work in progress, though).

My application will store parameters from the controller indefinitely so it's always viewable and you can view patters and trends and such. It's still a work in progress and suggestions like these are always welcome. Like the controller hardware and software, the application I've built is open source and free to download. It's just been a side project I've been working on for fun and is quite stable.

I go into detail about it in the following threads:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1881989
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1892797

screenie:

[Shard]

Crank2211,
A few issues I can think of that should be addressed with the ReefAngel controller, based mostly on the standard firmware.

(1) pH control. Can it dose kalk using an outlet based on the pH values? What about adding CO2 to a Ca reactor when the pH drops (with a solenoid valve)? Can you change those set point values from the headunit or web page, or must they be hard coded? Based on what is available in the documentation for the stock firmware, pretty much none of this possible without coding it yourself.

(2) Can you change settings from the headunit? Like re-assign outlets to different functions, or do you have to completely reload the program? Again, seems the answer to this is no also.

(3) On the controller, are the set points for various things stored in NVRAM or the like, or do they reset to some default value during a power cycle? I think I read that they reset in the documentation.

(4) Thinking of your application, it appears that it runs on a PC that hosts the webserver and interface. Have you considered programming it into the firmware so you do not have to have a computer connected 24/7? Needing a computer for this function adds to the overall complexity, bulk, and cost of a controller system. Integration with the Wifi module and the controller itself seems to be the best option.

(5) Are there any plans for other probes besides pH? ORP and Salinity probes come to mind as a feature with most other controllers, and some even have DO probes.

I am sure I can come up with some more for you. Do not take these as harsh criticisms of the controller. I feel these issues just need to be addressed if it wants to be on the same playing field as many of the commercial options. I am a big fan of open source software and hardware ideas, as I started using Linux back in 1995. There have been some unique products to come out of the fusion of business and open source. Great products like Firefox, OSX, etc. I just feel this controller has a ways to go before it can catch up with the mainstream options available. It is kind of like the early days of Linux. A lot of potential, but it hasn't been realized yet. I will probably be ordering one to play with myself, as I always like new toys, but I still feel some of the other controllers are a better value at the moment.

By the way, I really like your app layout, it is very visually appealing. Definitely a new plus I did not know about for this controller.

Landon

[rogerwilco357]

looks like you guys are into burning code or writing software and reefing? question do any of you guys work for one of these controller companies ? Just curious , these paragraphs are lengthy at times and just wondered..

[Shard]

Originally Posted by rogerwilco357

looks like you guys are into burning code or writing software and reefing? question do any of you guys work for one of these controller companies ? Just curious , these paragraphs are lengthy at times and just wondered..

Nope. Don't work for any company. Never want to work for a tech related company either, not a stable job market in my opinion, also lower pay grades than they should be. I am a Biology M.S. graduate student, so I have a strong background in marine topics. My research is under the umbrella of marine biochemistry. I also started computer programming as a kid. I was part of a special program when I was in elementary school. I have had a unique ability to understand electronics ever since. This hobby, and reef controllers, just happen to be a unique combination of some of my skills

I guess I do write longer posts than most, but this is because I believe people should understand what is being discussed as fully as possible. Facts are key points to any reading, and statements should include evidence in their support so they are more than just basic opinion. The more well rounded the data, the better the information.

Landon

[skraj011]

Originally Posted by Shard

The ReefAngel is for those that want to do a lot of their own programming. It is sort of a 'raw' package based on the arduino platform. I looked at it once, and at the time the outlet choices for the basic firmware provided were hard coded for their function and I don't think you could expand to more outlets. Definitely limited compared to the commercial options out there. Now, I think you can expand a little, by adding one more 8 outlet bar, and there are a few modules available. However there is no third party support for things like Vortech or Tunze pumps, LED lighting fixtures, etc. Trust me, I was a CS/CE, and I don't want to bite off that headache to deal with, not yet at least. It is an awesome idea to have a open source controller, but it needs another year or two to develop properly, as open source is often a lot slower to the finish line than commercial products. Unless you basically want to spend a LOT of time programming your own features into the kit, go with something else.

Between the RKE and the Apex, go with the Apex. I own both and the Apex blows the RKE out of the water. The $400 RKE doesn't come with networking, you would have to get the $500 model for that which ends up costing more than the regular Apex. Price for price, the Apex is actually cheaper and comes with more hardware and software features. It is also cheaper to expand in the long run. You could even get the Apex Lite, which has the networking features and cost less than the $400 RKE package.

The firmware on the Apex is also miles ahead of the RKE. The Apex has had remote programming since the day it came out, the RKE still hasn't integrated that feature after over 2 years on the market. I had the RKE since late 2008, and it had so many bugs and problems back then. They worked a lot of them out, but with all this recent 2.0 beta stuff, there were bugs about modules not being recognized, 'update' firmware images available for download that didn't work, the need to run buggy beta firmware to use the newer modules, etc. It took them from May until December to get most of the major problems worked out with the 2.0/myReef setup (~7 months). Not to mention the myReef/2.0 combo was originally supposed to be out 'sometime in 2009', not in almost 2011. Even though this latest release is called 'production', DA has acknowledged there are still some problems with it.

To update the RKE system you have to disassemble your entire setup and flash each module, one by one, at your computer. The constant little revisions became a pain to have to continually update. But even that was better than what DA did at one point.... At one point recently DA went over 5 months without a firmware update. It was over 155 days without a firmware update or update to myReef when some bugs were still driving users crazy. The updating is also really finicky. Sometimes you have to re-flash the whole system, remove calibration files, do hard resets. At times, getting it to flash and function properly can be like trying to pat your head, rub your stomach, and balance on top of a basketball, all at the same time.

Thinking of Neptune, they have updates out in days or weeks, not months. They are pretty quick to address any minor software issues that arise, and updating is quick and painless. No disassembly required, just a few clicks. No work arounds and tricks, or hard resets, or downgrading then upgrading, or using old web BIN files with new HEX firmwares.

As for support? I will say DA did finally get some of my modules fixed after working with them. It took forever to get RMAs and the details worked out, because I couldn't get anyone on the phone, so had to mostly do it by email, with a few days between each response. Then, even though there is a new 'two year warranty' and I initially started talking to them about the problem before my 1 year warranty was even up, I had to PAY to get them fixed. The two year warranty apparently doesn't apply to long time customers, only new ones, who purchased products after the announcement of the extension. They said they did me a favor giving me a 'discount' on my service, but I was not very happy to receive a bill for something that should have been covered under warranty.

With Neptune, I have never had a major issue that has crashed the entire system like I have with the RKE. I had a minor issue with the backlight going out on my headunit, and all it took was a 5 minute phone call to get a RMA to get it fixed, no other questions asked. I once had another issue with a module not wanting to recognize properly, so I called Neptune. Curt telneted into my Apex remotely and had the issue fixed within 5 minutes while I was on the phone. Now that is customer service. Can DA remotely connect to your RKE and troubleshoot your system on the spot via a terminal? No. Curt, the owner of Neptune is amazing. He has spent a Sunday afternoon on the phone for hours helping a user get his system setup. Your lucky if you get a response from DA after a couple of days.

All in all, make your own choice. But I will say the Apex is better hardware, has better software, and the company provides better customer service. There are more third party options available with Neptune, more software apps, they are more consistent releasing new hardware, and have remained ahead of DA the entire time I have owned both products. Take it from someone who owns and uses both. Get the Apex. I still have the RKE, it runs a 9g tank in the corner. The Apex now runs my SPS 28g Nanocube HQI, my 90g mixed reef, and my 60g frag tank. Which one do you think I trust the most after over 2 years experience dealing with either of them?

Hope this helps,
Landon

wow that is a lot of good information. thanks for taking the time.

[jgrog76]

You can do anything you want with the reefangel. Changing outlet programming takes about 10 seconds and is simply changing the number of the outlet in the coding. For example if you want the wavemaker on outlet 7 instead of 4, you place 7 where the number 4 is. There is also an auto generator program out that you set all your parameters and assignments into and it writes the code for the controller. All you do is load it. Many people bash the reefangel because it is cheap to purchase compared to the other options, it is not sexy, it does not have a large following that post on RC, does not advertise, it is opensource so there is little money to be made on it, its not "trendy"and lastly it does not have a sponsor forum here. There have been many threads removed and or closed from this website about the controller. The development software most people refer to is extrememly dated. I think the current version is 8.5.??. There is a support for just about anything you want and if you have an issue you can email the owner and he will write the program for you in less than 24 hours and send it back for you to load. I have been running the controller since it started selling in May or June of 2010. It has not crashed my tank, not caused any failure, worked flawlessly, and been supported better than any aquarium product I have ever purchased. And yes it does have a graphing function. There is a google group that is dedicated to the controller if you need to find out more about what software is out there for the product.

[smellsfishy]

Great thread! I too am looking at incorporating a controller into my system I am building up. This information is priceless when researching/learning.

[nanotank]

Profilux....

[crank2211]

Originally Posted by Shard

Crank2211,
A few issues I can think of that should be addressed with the ReefAngel controller, based mostly on the standard firmware.

(1) pH control. Can it dose kalk using an outlet based on the pH values? What about adding CO2 to a Ca reactor when the pH drops (with a solenoid valve)? Can you change those set point values from the headunit or web page, or must they be hard coded? Based on what is available in the documentation for the stock firmware, pretty much none of this possible without coding it yourself.

(2) Can you change settings from the headunit? Like re-assign outlets to different functions, or do you have to completely reload the program? Again, seems the answer to this is no also.

(3) On the controller, are the set points for various things stored in NVRAM or the like, or do they reset to some default value during a power cycle? I think I read that they reset in the documentation.

(4) Thinking of your application, it appears that it runs on a PC that hosts the webserver and interface. Have you considered programming it into the firmware so you do not have to have a computer connected 24/7? Needing a computer for this function adds to the overall complexity, bulk, and cost of a controller system. Integration with the Wifi module and the controller itself seems to be the best option.

(5) Are there any plans for other probes besides pH? ORP and Salinity probes come to mind as a feature with most other controllers, and some even have DO probes.

I am sure I can come up with some more for you. Do not take these as harsh criticisms of the controller. I feel these issues just need to be addressed if it wants to be on the same playing field as many of the commercial options. I am a big fan of open source software and hardware ideas, as I started using Linux back in 1995. There have been some unique products to come out of the fusion of business and open source. Great products like Firefox, OSX, etc. I just feel this controller has a ways to go before it can catch up with the mainstream options available. It is kind of like the early days of Linux. A lot of potential, but it hasn't been realized yet. I will probably be ordering one to play with myself, as I always like new toys, but I still feel some of the other controllers are a better value at the moment.

By the way, I really like your app layout, it is very visually appealing. Definitely a new plus I did not know about for this controller.

Landon

Shard, again all good points and I'll do my best to address them.

1.) The controller can toggle any number of outlets based on the pH probe's input. Changing these setting cannot currently be done on the web or controllers headunit. Right now it would have to be added through the Arduino IDE and uploaded to the controller. The libraries, in my experience, make it very easy to make this change

if(ReefAngel.PH < 780)
{ReefAngel.Relay.On(CO2)}

The above line would turn on the relay with the alias "CO2". You could just add another line to check if the pH has reached the desired level and use the OFF command. It's pretty simple to make changes and I'm sure if a request was put in to the user who has been writing and sharing the latest libraries, he could add the menu items so you can make the changes on the headunit instead. The community has been very accommodating in that regard.

2.) Reassigning outlets to different functions would have to be done in code library and uploaded.

3.) Settings and calibrations are stored in non-volatile EEPROM Memory. This means all your calibrations and settings that are made to the program will be restored after a power outage. They do not revert back to some default value.

4.) I'm a little confused about this one. If you're looking for historical data logging and reactive alerts to parameters, then yes it has to be running. If you just want to know how your tank is doing at any point in time or control some outlets for say a "Feeding Mode" then you can fire it up any time you want and do that. It's not required that it run 24/7 but it is most beneficial if it is. If enabled, the controller itself will just broadcasts its parameters for anyone listening. All I'm doing is capturing those parameters and doing different things with them. If you're referring to the actual storage of the parameters on the controller itself, I know there is a limited amount of memory on the unit to work with so I'm not sure that its feasible to store 6 months or even a years worth of data on it. In this case, I believe a PC is better suited for this task. Also, the firmware programming aspect isn't really my strong suit so I'll leave that up to the people who could do a much better job with it.

To more directly answer your question, no I didn't really consider programming anything I've done into controllers firmware. I don't know the nuances that well and honestly just did the best I could with what I know. You may be right that certain functions or features will be better off in the firmware but thats exactly why I love that this is open source. It's an ever evolving product that will can only get better with time. Eventually those very features might make its way into the firmware and I will be able to remove them from mine. You can upload different things to try out and remove those you don't like. You're not locked into any one set of rules or features. If you can think of it, the community will help you to try and see it through to fruition. For this reason, it's exactly why I made the purchase.

5.) I really have no idea, but I hope so.

Again, I'm not saying this controller is perfect. Far from it. It's definitely not for everyone. If you're looking for a budget controller that comes with quite a lot out of the box, and don't mind some DIY, I'd say it's definitely worth consideration. You're right Shard, when you say it hasn't had enough time to mature when comparing to some others. It will be interesting to see what happens with it. It's refreshing to see how far everything has come in just the past 6 months, though.

Originally Posted by rogerwilco357

looks like you guys are into burning code or writing software and reefing? question do any of you guys work for one of these controller companies ? Just curious , these paragraphs are lengthy at times and just wondered..

No reefing product affiliation here, just a CS background. Was looking for a side project to work on in free time between the job and waiting for the mountains to open to start snowboarding

[wesleyforbes2]

Nice thread as I am looking to get a controller for my 90 gallon. I am leaning towards the APEX Lite. The most important thing for me is setting everything up on my computer and being able to download app to work on my iPad. My lights as well as heater and being able to monitor pH and temp will be my main uses.

[Makenna]

+1 Profilux......just do it!!

[Brwestern]

Originally Posted by Makenna

+1 Profilux......just do it!!

Ghl profilux 3