Ich POLL!

[syrinx]

I agree its misdiagnosed a lot- maybe half the time. Then again the treatments for the various parasites is often the same. I have as you say- seen healthy fish get it as well- but not without a major stress incident prior. These major stresses include- poweroutage,temp spike or drop, etc. I also think some of the "fresh from the ocean"strains will spank the healthiest fish-if a non qt`d ich factory like a tang or puffer is introduced without proper QT.

[Stuart60611]

This poll is really worthless. Many people have crypt (ich) in their systems and do not even notice it because of an untrained eye or because fish remain largely asymptomatic. Therefore, polling in this fashion is not even slightly reliable because the data upon which it is based is very flawed. If you have multiple fish in your display system and did not use very strict protocal in quarantine to avoid introduction of the parasite into your display, then the chances are extremely high that you have crypt in your system. I have read one article which idicates that approximately 1/3 of all fish sold retail in the trade are infected with a parasite. Moreover, I see many people here misdiagnose crypt and instead believe that crypt is black ich (a worm), flukes, or some other parasite because they are confusing the secondary problems caused by crypt with the underlying infestation. A poll based on a sampling of misinformed people adds little to the discussion.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

This poll is really worthless. Many people have crypt (ich) in their systems and do not even notice it because of an untrained eye or because fish remain largely asymptomatic. Therefore, polling in this fashion is not even slightly reliable because the data upon which it is based is very flawed. If you have multiple fish in your display system and did not use very strict protocal in quarantine to avoid introduction of the parasite into your display, then the chances are extremely high that you have crypt in your system. I have read one article which idicates that approximately 1/3 of all fish sold retail in the trade are infected with a parasite. Moreover, I see many people here misdiagnose crypt and instead believe that crypt is black ich (a worm), flukes, or some other parasite because they are confusing the secondary problems caused by crypt with the underlying infestation. A poll based on a sampling of misinformed people adds little to the discussion.

.......not to mention the what beginners face when they follow the "easy" way after reading so much conflicting information.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

.......not to mention the beginners face when they follow the "easy" way after reading so much conflicting information.

Ya, unfortuantely, there are quite a few people here at RC who regularly post to others on how to approach parasite treatment and prevention who themselves are very inexperienced and/or misinformed about the topic. This is very troubling because it is one thing when you decide for yourself to defy accepted protocal and treatment, but it is quite another when you advise a very inexperienced hobbyist to do the same. I find it very morally offensive when someone takes it upon themselves to cause another hobbyists to risk the very lives of their fish based on misinformation when the hobbyist does not yet understand the risk he or she is taking. Not that post count alone is a reliable indicator, but I would recommend that no one follow the advice on this topic of anyone who has less than 1000 posts here at RC because there are so many people here at RC who regularlly post incorrect information on this topic. Those with a 1000 posts or more are much more likely to know what they are talking about with respect to this topic. Since the very lives of our fish depend on accurate information in terms of parasite prevention or treatment, I think that this approach is wise, although not full proof in terms of eliminating the vast amount of misinformation posted.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by syrinx

I agree its misdiagnosed a lot- maybe half the time. Then again the treatments for the various parasites is often the same. I have as you say- seen healthy fish get it as well- but not without a major stress incident prior. These major stresses include- poweroutage,temp spike or drop, etc. I also think some of the "fresh from the ocean"strains will spank the healthiest fish-if a non qt`d ich factory like a tang or puffer is introduced without proper QT.

+1 If you follow the "healthy fish don't get ich" theory, then wild tangs should never get it. They do, and there very few active ich parasites at the level tangs inhabit on the reef. If a healthy, wild tang could get any ich parasites, why wouldn't that same fish be covered with the parasite in a captive environment? The number of ich parasites in a tank (if present) have to be at a concentration thousands of times what the tang encounters on the reef. Please don't tell me its the garlic.

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

Ya, unfortuantely, there are quite a few people here at RC who regularly post to others on how to approach parasite treatment and prevention who themselves are very inexperienced and/or misinformed about the topic. This is very troubling because it is one thing when you decide for yourself to defy accepted protocal and treatment, but it is quite another when you advise a very inexperienced hobbyist to do the same. I find it very morally offensive when someone takes it upon themselves to cause another hobbyists to risk the very lives of their fish based on misinformation when the hobbyist does not yet understand the risk he or she is taking. Not that post count alone is a reliable indicator, but I would recommend that no one follow the advice on this topic of anyone who has less than 1000 posts here at RC because there are so many people here at RC who regularlly post incorrect information on this topic. Those with a 1000 posts or more are much more likely to know what they are talking about with respect to this topic. Since the very lives of our fish depend on accurate information in terms of parasite prevention or treatment, I think that this approach is wise, although not full proof in terms of eliminating the vast amount of misinformation posted.

I disagree with the 1000 post comment. There are people that have been around here for less than a year with over 1000. Go with amount of time in the hobby.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by RBU1

I disagree with the 1000 post comment. There are people that have been around here for less than a year with over 1000. Go with amount of time in the hobby.

I agree that the post count is not necessarily reliable and that many people with less than a 1000 posts are very knowledgeable, and I guess that there are some people who post prolificly who can obtain a 1000 posts quickly, although fairly rare. Maybe more than 1000 posts would be a more appropriate threshold. It would be nice if we could go with your suggested "time in the hobby" criteria to determine reliability, but unfortuantely that is not so. People often plainly lie and state that they have been in the hobby for quite a long time when in fact they have not. You cannot fudge one's post count as easily and therefore is a much more reliable indicator where as "time in the hobby" is whatever someone chooses to state without any check as to its reliability.

[RBU1]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

I agree that the post count is not necessarily reliable and that many people with less than a 1000 posts are very knowledgeable. It would be nice if we could go with your suggested "time in the hobby" criteria to determine reliability, but unfortuantely that is not so. People often plainly lie and state that they have been in the hobby for quite a long time when in fact they have not. You cannot fudge one's post count as easily and therefore is a much more reliable indicator where as "time in the hobby" is whatever someone chooses to state without any check as to its reliability.

What I meant was join date on Reef Central. Not someones word for how long thy have been in the hobby.

[Stuart60611]

Originally Posted by RBU1

What I meant was join date on Reef Central. Not someones word for how long thy have been in the hobby.

That is a good point and maybe that is a better approach.

[jimmyj7090]

There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......

-ick is a parisite with a well known life cycle. It absolutely can be eradicated if the correct measures are taken. "ick is present in every tank" is absolutely not true and it is very misleading when people make such statements. Parisites do not appear out of thin air. They have to come in on something, period.

-ick outbreaks are definately stress related. When ick IS present in a system, any new stressor is likely to make it flare up.

-QT is QT. Treatment is treatment. Treatment needs to be done in QT, but QT does not treat.

-"treatment" is either hyposalinity or copper. (or the transfer method, but that scares me )

-QT without treatment is helpful for letting a fish acclimate in peace and be in the best place to fight the parisite if the fish is then placed in a system where ick IS present. QT without treatment absolutely does not assure that the fish is not carrying ick.

-Ick can be managed in a healthy system, and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by jimmyj7090

There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......

-ick is a parisite with a well known life cycle. It absolutely can be eradicated if the correct measures are taken. "ick is present in every tank" is absolutely not true and it is very misleading when people make such statements. Parisites do not appear out of thin air. They have to come in on something, period.

-ick outbreaks are definately stress related. When ick IS present in a system, any new stressor is likely to make it flare up.

-QT is QT. Treatment is treatment. Treatment needs to be done in QT, but QT does not treat.

-"treatment" is either hyposalinity or copper. (or the transfer method, but that scares me )

-QT without treatment is helpful for letting a fish acclimate in peace and be in the best place to fight the parisite if the fish is then placed in a system where ick IS present. QT without treatment absolutely does not assure that the fish is not carrying ick.

-Ick can be managed in a healthy system, and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it.

I'm a little slow, ; but, hey, I'm getting old. Are you pointing out contradictions or making statements?

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by Stuart60611

That is a good point and maybe that is a better approach.

How can you count "votes'' from responses like "I can't see any sign of ich, but I know its there"? It sounds like my youngest daughter describing the monster under her bed...when she was 3.

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

I'm a little slow, ; but, hey, I'm getting old. Are you pointing out contradictions or making statements?

I'm trying to outline the known facts. There are no contridictions in what I posted, but some of the things I posted contridicted what others seem to have posted

If it read like I was pointing out contridctions, double check some of the "IF"s that I capitalized for emphasis.

[briankmarsh1980]

Originally Posted by jimmyj7090

There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......

-ick is a parisite with a well known life cycle. It absolutely can be eradicated if the correct measures are taken. "ick is present in every tank" is absolutely not true and it is very misleading when people make such statements. Parisites do not appear out of thin air. They have to come in on something, period.

-ick outbreaks are definately stress related. When ick IS present in a system, any new stressor is likely to make it flare up.

-QT is QT. Treatment is treatment. Treatment needs to be done in QT, but QT does not treat.

-"treatment" is either hyposalinity or copper. (or the transfer method, but that scares me )

-QT without treatment is helpful for letting a fish acclimate in peace and be in the best place to fight the parisite if the fish is then placed in a system where ick IS present. QT without treatment absolutely does not assure that the fish is not carrying ick.

-Ick can be managed in a healthy system, and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it.

Nicely said

Marine ich is a living thing/parasite if you never let it in your tank you will never have it.
So treat all fish as if they have it even if they don't.
The parasite is smart you may think it goes away but it doesn't it will learn your light cycles and hide when the lights come on. You can turn the lights on in the middle of the night and that's when you will catch them.
So don't assume your fish just got over it cause they didn't! The parasite just got smarter

[opie one]

i blelieve ich to be in almost every tank, you can qt your fish but unless you treat it for ich it will be in your tank, just because it doesnt show signs of it doesnt mean its ich free, .

[opie one]

you can take a powder blue that is ich free and mix up a clean bucket of water and throw him in there and he will devolp ich. so where does it come from.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by jimmyj7090

I'm trying to outline the known facts. There are no contridictions in what I posted, but some of the things I posted contridicted what others seem to have posted

If it read like I was pointing out contridctions, double check some of the "IF"s that I capitalized for emphasis.

If your statement:...."and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it" is a known fact; do you have a source?

However, I do agree with your opening statement:"There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......" That is why I prefer this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1986013

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by opie one

i blelieve ich to be in almost every tank, you can qt your fish but unless you treat it for ich it will be in your tank, just because it doesnt show signs of it doesnt mean its ich free, .

Ich cannot live indefinitely without a fish host. If a tank has ich, it will show up.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by opie one

you can take a powder blue that is ich free and mix up a clean bucket of water and throw him in there and he will devolp ich. so where does it come from.

Have you done this? have a source that has? If you have just a basic knowledge of the ich parasite's life cycle, you must know that this reasoning is absurd. If a fish and its environment are ich free, the fish gets a parasite anyway? This goes way beyond anything I've heard on this subject.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by briankmarsh1980

Nicely said

Marine ich is a living thing/parasite if you never let it in your tank you will never have it.
So treat all fish as if they have it even if they don't.
The parasite is smart you may think it goes away but it doesn't it will learn your light cycles and hide when the lights come on. You can turn the lights on in the middle of the night and that's when you will catch them.
So don't assume your fish just got over it cause they didn't! The parasite just got smarter

Ordinarily, I'd just assume you were having fun; but on this thread....who know?

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

If your statement:...."and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it" is a known fact; do you have a source?

You have a good point, I don't have any references to back that up. I stated an assumption and later called it a fact. That was a mistake on my part.

That said, does anyone actually doubt that ick is present in many / most tanks? (The point I was trying to make was that though it is quite common for ick to be present, it IS possible to have a tank that is free of ick)

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

If your statement:...."and the vast majority of reef tanks are living with ick but managing it" is a known fact; do you have a source?

However, I do agree with your opening statement:"There is so much confusing info / opinion in this thread......" That is why I prefer this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1986013

Hey, no fair, you edited while I was quoting you

I definately agree that thread is the one to read, and this thread is the one that we would be better off without (because of the confusing and maybe false info contained in this thread).



The PBT in the bucket, well, it had ick on it before it went into the bucket.

Ick getting smart and hiding when the lights are on.........? Was that a joke?
Quoted from the above linked thread with the accurate info;
"The stage where the parasite is attached to a fish is called a trophont. The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish and that is what you see symptomatically when you see "salt sprinkled on the fish". After that, the trophont leaves the fish and becomes what is called a protomont."

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by jimmyj7090

You have a good point, I don't have any references to back that up. I stated an assumption and later called it a fact. That was a mistake on my part.

That said, does anyone actually doubt that ick is present in many / most tanks? (The point I was trying to make was that though it is quite common for ick to be present, it IS possible to have a tank that is free of ick)

Yes, having an ich free tank isn't that difficult. I think real experts like Fenner, Goemans, and others would doubt that ich is present in most tanks. "Many" and "most" can be miles apart....I think you're correct on the "many". I also think the owners of those tanks are going to realize the seriousness of their situation before long. I seldom make statements like the following, but here goes. I'd bet that if you could poll only owners of tanks that have been running smoothly for, say 5 years, and have kept several fish alive for at least 5 years; you would find very few of them who thought they had ich in their tanks.

[EllieSuz]

The only Ich I've seen was in a quarantine tank and the fish was treated. Had I not quarantined that fish, I most certainly would have exposed my Display fish to the parasite. Does it exist in every tank? I'm not expert enough to comment. I only know I've never seen any symptoms in four years of reefing. My fish survived parasite free through two upgrades, which means they went through very stressful situations at least twice with no trace of Ich.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by EllieSuz

The only Ich I've seen was in a quarantine tank and the fish was treated. Had I not quarantined that fish, I most certainly would have exposed my Display fish to the parasite. Does it exist in every tank? I'm not expert enough to comment. I only know I've never seen any symptoms in four years of reefing. My fish survived parasite free through two upgrades, which means they went through very stressful situations at least twice with no trace of Ich.

Great. That's the way it should be. See it, treat it, have an ich free tank forever. You should be able to stress (becoming the most overused word) in any manner. It can't get what ain't there.