RO/DI - NH3 at .5

[WetShepherd]

I have a relatively new (two months) RO/DI system which I haven't needed to use very much since my tank is only 55g. I did a test on the water last night and my Ammonia is at .5ppm so I'm wondering if it's more likely that I started with some bad filters, or if the system simply isn't up to the task. Here's the pertinent info for anyone willing to venture a guess.

City adds chloramine to the water.

100gpd RO/DI:

• First stage:(SED; 5 Micron Sedimentary Filter)
• Second Stage:(GAC; 5 Micron Granular Activated Carbon for Chemicals)
• Third Stage:(CCB; 1 Micron Coconut Carbon Block For Chemicals)
• Fourth Stage:(100 GPD Reverse Osmosis Membrane)
• Fifth Stage: (D.I; 6oz Canister of Deionization Resin Bead Filtration)

[thegrun]

I would suspect a bad test kit. Are you measuring your RO/DI water's TDS? If so what are they? Do you have a local fish store or know a fellow reefer who can confirm your ammonia readings and the water's TDS?

[Korrine]

your second stage should be catalytic carbon

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...ge-refill.html

We have Chloramines too!

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by Korrine

your second stage should be catalytic carbon

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...ge-refill.html

We have Chloramines too!

Thanks guys. Are you recommending I replace the second stage, or add catalytic between 1 and 2?

[Viking Dr]

What is the water quality coming from the city. Nothing can screw with an RO more than hard water. What are the grains or PPM of calcium and magnesium in the city supply.

[WetShepherd]

I'll have to report back on that - my tank is only about 3mo old so I've only been testing for the basics. I have a calcium kit which i've only just started using and no magnesium kit yet.

TDS coming out of the tap is around 70, thought I could have sworn it was much higher a few weeks ago when I tested. We had a water main break about a half block away today which could be throwing that off. I also did the ammonia test last night (night before the morning of the break) so it's conceivable there's something going on there as well. TDS from RO/DI is around 40, and the TDS of the RO/DI waste water is about 110.

No one to cross check my test kit with - asked one LFS and they didn't think they had an ammonia test on hand to do it - then offered to sell me one to do it myself lol. Left me wondering how they test their own tanks.

[Viking Dr]

Water out of a RO/Di should be at the most 4. Obviously 0 is perfect. 40 out of a RO DI is huge. MY tap has a TDS of 75 and I am getting 0-2. I first treat the water going into the RO with a water softener. So the hardness going into the RO is Zero. Most RO membranes Required a hardness of <10 Grains hardness or 171 ppm of calcium and magnesium. As well what is you Iron count coming out of you tap..that will affect the unit as well. If your tap water is over 200 TDS which I'll bet it is. Try treating the water fist with a softener then through the RO. The fish stores don't tell peeps this when they by these units. They like it cause it eats up membranes, like a kid on a smartie! Just so you know, I have been in the water treatment business for 25 years....

[WetShepherd]

Thanks for the help - it's much appreciated!

I noted above that my tap water is currently coming out at around or just under 70.

I just pulled the DI portion of the set up and tested the water immediately after the membrane. The results are about 10 TDS (down from 40) and no ammonia (down from .50). This suggests to me that I continue to have a problem before the membrane (tap water or pre-filters?), but that I also have something seriously wrong with my DI cartridge.

[Korrine]

You need to replace #2 with catalytic carbon. I would think with a tds of 70 out of the tap you'd have 0 out of the di. Give Bulk Reef Supply a call or email tomorrow. Brandon is the guy that will email back and he usually is VERY quick. Like within a 2 hour turn around time. I've had to ask questions and he gives great advice.

I have 500 or 600 tds tap water. It comes off my membrane at 3 or 4 and di is 0. I have ran crap loads of water. Probably 600g since March. My sediment filter is turning brown and it's time to change it.

Ammonia would shoot the membrane, btw. Don't run any more until you at least get catalytic carbon in first! The carbon strips it/breaks it down, however you want to say it and the block picks up any residual.

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by Korrine

You need to replace #2 with catalytic carbon. I would think with a tds of 70 out of the tap you'd have 0 out of the di. Give Bulk Reef Supply a call or email tomorrow. Brandon is the guy that will email back and he usually is VERY quick. Like within a 2 hour turn around time. I've had to ask questions and he gives great advice.

I have 500 or 600 tds tap water. It comes off my membrane at 3 or 4 and di is 0. I have ran crap loads of water. Probably 600g since March. My sediment filter is turning brown and it's time to change it.

Ammonia would shoot the membrane, btw. Don't run any more until you at least get catalytic carbon in first! The carbon strips it/breaks it down, however you want to say it and the block picks up any residual.

Thanks Korrine, I'm planning to give them a call tomorrow to see if their filter replacements will work with my weirdy woo canadian system. As I noted above, I'm not actually picking up any ammonia before my DI cartridge (wth) and now after replacing my DI cartridge with a new one I had on-hand, I'm getting 0 NH3 and 0 TDS. I guess I should be happy with that, but without an answer to why I had the previous problems I'm not. IME problems that solve themselves usually come back on their own

Also, thanks for the tip about ordering from BRS in general - I think if their filters work for me I'll order a full set for when I need them. If not then I might just pull the trigger and get a whole unit from them - they appear to have great shipping across the border too

If I may ask, which model are you using?

[Korrine]

I have an old Oceanus model. It's a 100 gpd but I use a 75 gpd membrane. I get all my replacement parts from Bulk Reef Supply.



I also had to order a new pressure gauge. The one behind the the front one is the new one. It is run right before the membrane. On the left side of the picture you see an in-line dual TDS meter. One fits in the line right after the membrane and the other right after the DI. Very easy to check what my unit is running at. One the very left is the switch to bypass the DI and get fresh drinking water. I use that in my espresso machine

[Korrine]

I just read about your model...it says GAC takes care of chloramines. That's weird. Do give BRS a call tomorrow.

This is scary

http://chloramine.org/chloraminefacts.htm

[WetShepherd]

Good stuff, thank you! I was primarily curious about the number of stages, which your picture clearly answered
If I continue to use my current system I'll have to add the in-line metering - too convenient to pass up. What am I missing out on by not having a pressure gauge?

[Korrine]

For our RO unit optimum performance is achieved by running at psi from 60-80,, I believe through the membrane. That's why my gauge is before the membrane. I'm not sure if/how Canadian units would operate...I wouldn't think much differently, but I don't know.

Oh, I also have a flush valve on my unit. It back flushes the membrane and really extends the life on it.

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by Korrine

For our RO unit optimum performance is achieved by running at psi from 60-80,, I believe through the membrane. That's why my gauge is before the membrane. I'm not sure if/how Canadian units would operate...I wouldn't think much differently, but I don't know.

Oh, I also have a flush valve on my unit. It back flushes the membrane and really extends the life on it.

It looks like we both replied at the same time - yea I'll still get in touch with them. I need to buy replacements at some point and it's going to be BRS if at all possible.

The units appear to be much the same except for the composition of the filters (construction appears consistent). And of course my casings are opaque which turns out to be a big downside - I'll have to open them up to inspect.

Thanks again SO much for all the help and tips

One last question because it just occurred to me that this might have contributed to my DI cartridge problem. When you aren't using the unit, do you shut off the water before it gets to the filters, or just close a valve at the end after filtration leaving water and pressure inside the unit?

I ask because I had a custom line plumbed off the main so I've been turning the water on and off at the pipe because a. it's easy and b. no leaks while i'm away if there's no pressure. It occurs to me now that I'm letting all the water drain out between uses - is that a problem?

[Korrine]

From what I've been told, the membrane, DI and catalytic carbon for sure needs to stay wet. Not sure about the sediment filter or carbon block. When I turn my water supply off, water stays(sits) in the unit(and splashes when I have to take a cartridge out ). I stored my RO unit like this, full of water, for a year!

I wonder if you could order clear canisters?

[Viking Dr]

Korrine 500-600 TDS...wow..I hope your not drinking that water....It is no wonder you have to run at 60-80 PSI. Catalytic carbon is for treating Cloramines. Cloramines are used as an alternative to Chlorine for disinfection. I would check with your local water authority before you go to the expense of using Catalytic carbon.

[Korrine]

he said he has chloramines and I have stated that we do as well

[WetShepherd]

Yea the info was readily available on my municipalities website. If any of the literature is right it seems like a really bad idea. At the very least, I'm not keen on seeing ammonia coming out of my tap.

Thanks again for the help guys - i'm all set up with BRS

[Korrine]

You're welcome I just ordered some new sediment filters from them this afternoon. Mine is all brownish/tan already.

[Buckeye Hydro]

With your tap water at 70 ppm, and a 100 gpd membrane, your RO water should be about 7 ppm, assuming you have decent pressure.

Looks like you bought one of those ebay special systems - a few thoughts for you:
1. Assuming you don't have issues with heavy sediment loads, switch to a 1 micron sediment filter.
2. Change the GAC filter to a CGAC filter, or a second standard carbon block.
3. I'd make your first carbon block a 0.5 micron, 20,000 gallon block. If you want to go with two blocks, the second should be a 5 micron block.
4. Especially with chloramines, you'll want to improve your DI stage. First, never place DI cartridges horizontally. Always place them vertically with bottom up flow. Use a full size (20 oz. or larger) resin cartridge.

Russ

[WetShepherd]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeFS

With your tap water at 70 ppm, and a 100 gpd membrane, your RO water should be about 7 ppm, assuming you have decent pressure.
Yep, that's about what I have, with 0 after DI.

Looks like you bought one of those ebay special systems - a few thoughts for you:
Bought it from a LFS because I wanted readily accessible cartridge replacements. Fortunately the hardware is standardized and I can just order from BRS (thanks Korrine).
1. Assuming you don't have issues with heavy sediment loads, switch to a 1 micron sediment filter.
2. Change the GAC filter to a CGAC filter, or a second standard carbon block.
3. I'd make your first carbon block a 0.5 micron, 20,000 gallon block. If you want to go with two blocks, the second should be a 5 micron block.
4. Especially with chloramines, you'll want to improve your DI stage. First, never place DI cartridges horizontally. Always place them vertically with bottom up flow. Use a full size (20 oz. or larger) resin cartridge.

I think that pretty well describes what I ordered from BRS on Thursday, including a new DI stage. My current filters should hold out until it arrives. Again, thank you for all the help - something as basic as clean water problems before it even reaches the tank can be pretty frustrating.
Russ

[Buckeye Hydro]

Your system takes standard sized filters - the filters that fit the housings beneath the bracket are called 10" x 2.5" although they may measure a bit differently. The membrane is a standard "1812" size.

Russ