Going Reef! 180 and Frag Tank Advice and Suggestions Please

NSteinbrook · 09/19/2011, 10:02 PM

So the current 150g 72x18x25
100_0290.jpg 100_0291.jpg

Follow along!
Will be plumbing to a 27g tub sump in the basement and incorporating a 36x32x12 frag tank. After 3 days of rethinking it all I finally went to Lowes today and pick up my PVC goods. Digging through the forums for info on overflow box vs. the numerous ways to get water out of the tank and too the sump without flooding the house.

Feel free to pick any of this apart and give me suggestions, they are most appreciated! Think I'm going with PVC intake DIY durso standpipe and an Aqualifter.... anyone out there doing this?? Pics would be awesome! This is what I'm thinking http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ight=standpipe. Gravity feed to the pre drilled frag tank via 3/4 pvc to 3/4 spa flex, Gravity feed from frag tank to sump via 1" pvc. Skimmer and out to an external Iwaki WMD-40RLT rated at 750 gph @ 23 feet, I'm going 12 Pump back to the tank via flex to pvc. Pardon the mess!
100_0292.jpg 100_0293.jpg Thoughts.....
Intake and out in DT 2" from surface, power outage means 15 gallons to the sump. Power back on siphon starts with help from Aqua lifter. Feasible so far?

Picked up a RODI http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/sh...ry=168&Sub=166 made by Buckeye Field Supply at the CORA swap in Columbus Saturday and got it up and running today. I'm attaching the pdf instructions in hopes someone can help me figure out the flush valve directions. 4 Stage RODI System.pdf
3. Connected to the wastewater port you will find a yellow waste water tube (Value Series systems) or flow restrictor/flush valve assembly (Premium Series systems). For Premium systems, connect the yellow tubing to the wye with the open port. Route this tubing to a drain. If you purchased a Premium System, open the flush valve (place the valve handle parallel to the tubing). Wastewater will flow from this tube when the system is on.
When following these directions I'm getting 15-20 psi, when closed I'm at 70-80. The drain valve and RODI are both producing either way, more RODI water when closed, more drain water when open. Either way it seems to be doing its job, but I don't like going against the directions. Reading are as follows Tap 225ppm, RO 18 ppm, RODI 0ppm. Not producing anywhere close to 75 gallon per hour though, thinking more like 5! What do you think? Hope someone has some input and has been there done that.

Thanks in advance,
Nate

NSteinbrook · 09/20/2011, 12:42 AM

Please take a few minutes and share your thoughts it will really help me out

NSteinbrook · 09/20/2011, 12:38 PM

Spoke with Buckeye Field Supply today, RODI is running normal and as it should be

NSteinbrook · 09/20/2011, 11:56 PM

Frag tank full of water and running! Pics tomorrow! I will plumb to main in the next few days, still working on pvc overflow.

cilyjr · 09/21/2011, 06:34 AM

your display is not drilled? that is unclear in what you are saying. the only truly fail safe way to not get a flood is drilling your tank and if possible i would use the bean animal system http://www.beananimal.com/projects/s...ow-system.aspx

Quote:

Originally Posted by djl

Sorry, but I should have stated what I thought was the obvious, which is that in either case one can drill an air hole at the top of the standpipe, or mount a small airline with a valve.

The only difference between these two designs is whether there is a bubble of air trapped above the flow of water, and if so, how big it is...

pulled from your other thread...i think we are having trouble understanding what you mean by "trapped" .a durso will not have any air "trapped" as the hole at the top will allow air to pass into the chamber. as water falls through a pipe it has a tendency to cling to the walls of the pipe this leaves a space where air is pulled in and down with the water. this creates a swooshing sound and often alot of gurgling at the sump end the purpose of the air inlet rather then just leaving the top of the t open is the amount of air going in will help control the sound. the hardest part is the control.

Runfrumu · 09/21/2011, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSteinbrook

So the current 150g 72x18x25
Attachment 161205 Attachment 161206

Follow along!
Will be plumbing to a 27g tub sump in the basement and incorporating a 36x32x12 frag tank. After 3 days of rethinking it all I finally went to Lowes today and pick up my PVC goods. Digging through the forums for info on overflow box vs. the numerous ways to get water out of the tank and too the sump without flooding the house.

Feel free to pick any of this apart and give me suggestions, they are most appreciated! Think I'm going with PVC intake DIY durso standpipe and an Aqualifter.... anyone out there doing this?? Pics would be awesome! This is what I'm thinking http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ight=standpipe. Gravity feed to the pre drilled frag tank via 3/4 pvc to 3/4 spa flex, Gravity feed from frag tank to sump via 1" pvc. Skimmer and out to an external Iwaki WMD-40RLT rated at 750 gph @ 23 feet, I'm going 12 Pump back to the tank via flex to pvc. Pardon the mess!
Attachment 161201 Attachment 161202 Thoughts.....
Intake and out in DT 2" from surface, power outage means 15 gallons to the sump. Power back on siphon starts with help from Aqua lifter. Feasible so far?

Picked up a RODI http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/sh...ry=168&Sub=166 made by Buckeye Field Supply at the CORA swap in Columbus Saturday and got it up and running today. I'm attaching the pdf instructions in hopes someone can help me figure out the flush valve directions. Attachment 161198
3. Connected to the wastewater port you will find a yellow waste water tube (Value Series systems) or flow restrictor/flush valve assembly (Premium Series systems). For Premium systems, connect the yellow tubing to the wye with the open port. Route this tubing to a drain. If you purchased a Premium System, open the flush valve (place the valve handle parallel to the tubing). Wastewater will flow from this tube when the system is on.
When following these directions I'm getting 15-20 psi, when closed I'm at 70-80. The drain valve and RODI are both producing either way, more RODI water when closed, more drain water when open. Either way it seems to be doing its job, but I don't like going against the directions. Reading are as follows Tap 225ppm, RO 18 ppm, RODI 0ppm. Not producing anywhere close to 75 gallon per hour though, thinking more like 5! What do you think? Hope someone has some input and has been there done that.

Thanks in advance,
Nate

If you are only getting 15-20 psi of pressure that's the reason you aren't getting the correct gpd. Mine get's 50psi out of the sink when the filters are new, and about 45 when they start getting dirty.

If you live in the somewhere you have your own house, you can go to where the water comes into your house, at the road and crank up the pressure.

Also, don't get any mushrooms, zoanthids, or green star polyps.

NSteinbrook · 09/21/2011, 11:57 AM

Runfrumu-
Thanks for the input, it was all about confusion with the flow valve. After talking to the dist. the flow valve needed to be be closed. It is currently running @80 psi and working well. Also thanks for the heads up on mushrooms, zoanthids, or green star polyps!

NSteinbrook · 09/21/2011, 12:12 PM

Cilyjr-
Thanks for posting, DT is not drilled sorry for the confusion. What do you guys think about the ideas from this thread http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...+lifter+siphon
A portion of the thread is listed below:
Honestly I think you'd be better off using 3/4". It'll have a little more forgiveness than 1/2" in this case.

I build a couple of returns for a lady friend of mine on another forum site and made a couple of videos of them in action. In both cases I used my diy pvc overflow to test them out. Here's the links if you want to see it in action.

In this video you can see my idea for creating a siphon break in the return itself by using side flow loc line nozzles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LZPWEmVEO0

In this second video I modified the overflow by pretty much just cutting it in half. I used 1" pipe to build it and in each video I was using a 250gph pump to push the water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AZZb...eature=related

Actually found a 3rd vid...same overflow. The videos are short.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0rKPSUvvNw

Again, if I had anything to change I would take out the T on the top of the overflow that hangs over the tank and just go with 2 elbows and instert the air line nipple directly over where the rim of the tank is.
The first video is the design I like best for the return, video 3 really simplifies the overflow to elbows and tee for the aqualifter. My only ? at this point is why the need for U that comes into the tank, all the way to the bottom and back to the surface? Can I just come in and go say 1" below the water line from the elbow? I presented this ? to 2Quills via PM

NSteinbrook · 09/22/2011, 10:51 AM

Hey All-
In the process of pluming my non drilled 150 DT to a basement frag tank via pvc overflow like thishttp://www.youtube.com/user/lonewolf.../1/j0rKPSUvvNw then to a sump underneath, back to the DT using a Iwaki WMD-40RT (750 gph with no head loss) using 3/4" out. Frag tank in currently drilled and plumbed for a 3/4" in and a 1" out that tees to 2 3/4" pipes so it can be run into 2 separate sections of the sump. Ball valves on both IN and OUT. I would like to plumb this to run the ball valves all the way open and have no water level fluctuation in the sump. Someone please help me with math here for what size pvc from DT to frag tank and frag tank to sump. Any and all suggestions and advice would be awesome.
Thanks in advance
Nate
000_0009.jpg
000_0010.jpg
Another issue I'm having is with intake and out on the frag tank

Need to have my intake facing up, its down in the pic. But it cyclones and makes a fantastic noise. Will pull too much water to the sump with power outage. Output will siphon to the sump when power is out, this is a problem b/c if I keep the nozzle at the surface when the power comes back on its like a fire hose.
On a good note, I'm kinda past the frustration point and finding humor in the fact that there is a new hurdle at every turn. It's so going to be worth it when it's done!

jimmy frag · 09/22/2011, 11:08 AM

the water presure coming to your home will be the same throughout regardless. opening the valve more where the water enters the home will not change the presure. its a constant. how are you going to control the air bubbles in such a small sump, water crashing from the upper floor regardless of flow rate 300g- 3000g per h pump is still traveling through the over flow pipe to the basement at the same speed causing alot of water/air crashing causing a larg amount of bubbles.

NSteinbrook · 09/22/2011, 11:13 AM

Jimmy-
Water from the Display tank is feeding the frag tank where there is a ball valve. Frag tank gravity feed to the sump then back to DT

jimmy frag · 09/22/2011, 02:34 PM

so your pumping 750 gph to the display, gravity feed 750 gph 8-10 feet to a 3/4 inch inlet to your frag tank, over flow to your 27 gallon sump, skim, then 750 gph back to the display tank. is that correct

jimmy frag · 09/22/2011, 02:38 PM

whats the ball valve for ?

NSteinbrook · 09/22/2011, 05:09 PM

That's correct, ball valves where already there but will prob be a must because gravity won't feed water at exactly 750 gph

jimmy frag · 09/22/2011, 06:21 PM

hi nate. im questioning you only because of concern, maybe im just not understanding your build. i have been in this business a long time. i was really hoping others with experience would have jumped in. 750gph is a great flow rate for what you want to do but there are many factors that you must consider. 3/4 inch will restrict the flow from the main tank to the frag tank. im not understanding your reply ( will prob be a must because gravity won't feed water at exactly 750 gph) what goes in must come out. with out restriction. im guessing here that 30%-40% of whats traveling through the 3/4 pipe will be air. there is not a hope in hell that your going to expect to also get 750 gallons per hour. i would be looking at a 2 inch pipe unrestricted from the main tank down to the frag tank . then you will also have a mass of uncontrolable air bubbles in the frag tank. also the frag tank is just a large dumping ground for detrius. there are other builds on this form some what simular to what you are doing that you would get some insight from. will be tagging along and wish you the best. jimmy

NSteinbrook · 09/22/2011, 09:38 PM

Thanks Jimmy-
I too had hoped for more input but perhaps I'm not being clear enough with descriptions and only confusing people. I really appreciate your critique and advice. Really struggling with forum searching to get exactly the right info although I think it's more overload then anything. I ran my plumbing today as I had described earlier 3/4" gravity to the frag tank, gravity to the sump, external pump back to display tank. I didn't have any bubbles in the intake tube or dumping in the frag tank unless there was a break in siphon of course. All ran well with one exception, trying to dial in exactly the right flow using ball valves to keep the water level in the sump consistent or in the display tank however you want to see it as it's one or the other as you give or take water. So i'm wondering if this is why the overflow box was created? let the tank fill to surface of overflow and bingo, you'll never flood the tank. Detrius- Guess I don't understand how this is a factor given the water movement, skimming and refugium that will be in the sump. It's not like it's lingering anywhere for long, if I'm off track please do educate me. The water coming into the frag tank is doing so through a socket joint tubing so it's pin pointing the water flow not dumping straight in and creating bubbles. Any threads you know of linking two tanks then a sump without them both feeding to the sump and adding the need for another pump?
Thanks again Jimmy

09/19/2011, 10:02 PM	#1
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Going Reef! 180 and Frag Tank Advice and Suggestions Please So the current 150g 72x18x25 100_0290.jpg 100_0291.jpg Follow along! Will be plumbing to a 27g tub sump in the basement and incorporating a 36x32x12 frag tank. After 3 days of rethinking it all I finally went to Lowes today and pick up my PVC goods. Digging through the forums for info on overflow box vs. the numerous ways to get water out of the tank and too the sump without flooding the house. Feel free to pick any of this apart and give me suggestions, they are most appreciated! Think I'm going with PVC intake DIY durso standpipe and an Aqualifter.... anyone out there doing this?? Pics would be awesome! This is what I'm thinking http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...ight=standpipe. Gravity feed to the pre drilled frag tank via 3/4 pvc to 3/4 spa flex, Gravity feed from frag tank to sump via 1" pvc. Skimmer and out to an external Iwaki WMD-40RLT rated at 750 gph @ 23 feet, I'm going 12 Pump back to the tank via flex to pvc. Pardon the mess! 100_0292.jpg 100_0293.jpg Thoughts..... Intake and out in DT 2" from surface, power outage means 15 gallons to the sump. Power back on siphon starts with help from Aqua lifter. Feasible so far? Picked up a RODI http://www.buckeyefieldsupply.com/sh...ry=168&Sub=166 made by Buckeye Field Supply at the CORA swap in Columbus Saturday and got it up and running today. I'm attaching the pdf instructions in hopes someone can help me figure out the flush valve directions. 4 Stage RODI System.pdf 3. Connected to the wastewater port you will find a yellow waste water tube (Value Series systems) or flow restrictor/flush valve assembly (Premium Series systems). For Premium systems, connect the yellow tubing to the wye with the open port. Route this tubing to a drain. If you purchased a Premium System, open the flush valve (place the valve handle parallel to the tubing). Wastewater will flow from this tube when the system is on. When following these directions I'm getting 15-20 psi, when closed I'm at 70-80. The drain valve and RODI are both producing either way, more RODI water when closed, more drain water when open. Either way it seems to be doing its job, but I don't like going against the directions. Reading are as follows Tap 225ppm, RO 18 ppm, RODI 0ppm. Not producing anywhere close to 75 gallon per hour though, thinking more like 5! What do you think? Hope someone has some input and has been there done that. Thanks in advance, Nate Last edited by NSteinbrook; 09/19/2011 at 10:57 PM.

09/20/2011, 11:56 PM	#4
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Frag tank full of water and running! Pics tomorrow! I will plumb to main in the next few days, still working on pvc overflow. Last edited by NSteinbrook; 09/21/2011 at 12:45 AM.

09/22/2011, 10:51 AM	#9
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Hey All- In the process of pluming my non drilled 150 DT to a basement frag tank via pvc overflow like thishttp://www.youtube.com/user/lonewolf.../1/j0rKPSUvvNw then to a sump underneath, back to the DT using a Iwaki WMD-40RT (750 gph with no head loss) using 3/4" out. Frag tank in currently drilled and plumbed for a 3/4" in and a 1" out that tees to 2 3/4" pipes so it can be run into 2 separate sections of the sump. Ball valves on both IN and OUT. I would like to plumb this to run the ball valves all the way open and have no water level fluctuation in the sump. Someone please help me with math here for what size pvc from DT to frag tank and frag tank to sump. Any and all suggestions and advice would be awesome. Thanks in advance Nate 000_0009.jpg 000_0010.jpg Another issue I'm having is with intake and out on the frag tank Need to have my intake facing up, its down in the pic. But it cyclones and makes a fantastic noise. Will pull too much water to the sump with power outage. Output will siphon to the sump when power is out, this is a problem b/c if I keep the nozzle at the surface when the power comes back on its like a fire hose. On a good note, I'm kinda past the frustration point and finding humor in the fact that there is a new hurdle at every turn. It's so going to be worth it when it's done! Last edited by NSteinbrook; 09/22/2011 at 10:58 AM.

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09/20/2011, 12:42 AM	#2
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Please take a few minutes and share your thoughts it will really help me out

09/20/2011, 12:38 PM	#3
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Spoke with Buckeye Field Supply today, RODI is running normal and as it should be

09/21/2011, 11:57 AM	#7
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Runfrumu- Thanks for the input, it was all about confusion with the flow valve. After talking to the dist. the flow valve needed to be be closed. It is currently running @80 psi and working well. Also thanks for the heads up on mushrooms, zoanthids, or green star polyps!

09/21/2011, 12:12 PM	#8
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Cilyjr- Thanks for posting, DT is not drilled sorry for the confusion. What do you guys think about the ideas from this thread http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...+lifter+siphon A portion of the thread is listed below: Honestly I think you'd be better off using 3/4". It'll have a little more forgiveness than 1/2" in this case. I build a couple of returns for a lady friend of mine on another forum site and made a couple of videos of them in action. In both cases I used my diy pvc overflow to test them out. Here's the links if you want to see it in action. In this video you can see my idea for creating a siphon break in the return itself by using side flow loc line nozzles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LZPWEmVEO0 In this second video I modified the overflow by pretty much just cutting it in half. I used 1" pipe to build it and in each video I was using a 250gph pump to push the water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AZZb...eature=related Actually found a 3rd vid...same overflow. The videos are short. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0rKPSUvvNw Again, if I had anything to change I would take out the T on the top of the overflow that hangs over the tank and just go with 2 elbows and instert the air line nipple directly over where the rim of the tank is. The first video is the design I like best for the return, video 3 really simplifies the overflow to elbows and tee for the aqualifter. My only ? at this point is why the need for U that comes into the tank, all the way to the bottom and back to the surface? Can I just come in and go say 1" below the water line from the elbow? I presented this ? to 2Quills via PM

09/22/2011, 11:08 AM	#10
jimmy frag Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: burlington ontario Posts: 845	the water presure coming to your home will be the same throughout regardless. opening the valve more where the water enters the home will not change the presure. its a constant. how are you going to control the air bubbles in such a small sump, water crashing from the upper floor regardless of flow rate 300g- 3000g per h pump is still traveling through the over flow pipe to the basement at the same speed causing alot of water/air crashing causing a larg amount of bubbles.

09/22/2011, 11:13 AM	#11
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Jimmy- Water from the Display tank is feeding the frag tank where there is a ball valve. Frag tank gravity feed to the sump then back to DT

09/22/2011, 02:34 PM	#12
jimmy frag Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: burlington ontario Posts: 845	so your pumping 750 gph to the display, gravity feed 750 gph 8-10 feet to a 3/4 inch inlet to your frag tank, over flow to your 27 gallon sump, skim, then 750 gph back to the display tank. is that correct

09/22/2011, 02:38 PM	#13
jimmy frag Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: burlington ontario Posts: 845	whats the ball valve for ?

09/22/2011, 05:09 PM	#14
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	That's correct, ball valves where already there but will prob be a must because gravity won't feed water at exactly 750 gph

09/22/2011, 06:21 PM	#15
jimmy frag Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: burlington ontario Posts: 845	hi nate. im questioning you only because of concern, maybe im just not understanding your build. i have been in this business a long time. i was really hoping others with experience would have jumped in. 750gph is a great flow rate for what you want to do but there are many factors that you must consider. 3/4 inch will restrict the flow from the main tank to the frag tank. im not understanding your reply ( will prob be a must because gravity won't feed water at exactly 750 gph) what goes in must come out. with out restriction. im guessing here that 30%-40% of whats traveling through the 3/4 pipe will be air. there is not a hope in hell that your going to expect to also get 750 gallons per hour. i would be looking at a 2 inch pipe unrestricted from the main tank down to the frag tank . then you will also have a mass of uncontrolable air bubbles in the frag tank. also the frag tank is just a large dumping ground for detrius. there are other builds on this form some what simular to what you are doing that you would get some insight from. will be tagging along and wish you the best. jimmy

09/22/2011, 09:38 PM	#16
NSteinbrook Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chillicothe,Oh Posts: 27	Thanks Jimmy- I too had hoped for more input but perhaps I'm not being clear enough with descriptions and only confusing people. I really appreciate your critique and advice. Really struggling with forum searching to get exactly the right info although I think it's more overload then anything. I ran my plumbing today as I had described earlier 3/4" gravity to the frag tank, gravity to the sump, external pump back to display tank. I didn't have any bubbles in the intake tube or dumping in the frag tank unless there was a break in siphon of course. All ran well with one exception, trying to dial in exactly the right flow using ball valves to keep the water level in the sump consistent or in the display tank however you want to see it as it's one or the other as you give or take water. So i'm wondering if this is why the overflow box was created? let the tank fill to surface of overflow and bingo, you'll never flood the tank. Detrius- Guess I don't understand how this is a factor given the water movement, skimming and refugium that will be in the sump. It's not like it's lingering anywhere for long, if I'm off track please do educate me. The water coming into the frag tank is doing so through a socket joint tubing so it's pin pointing the water flow not dumping straight in and creating bubbles. Any threads you know of linking two tanks then a sump without them both feeding to the sump and adding the need for another pump? Thanks again Jimmy