Question for those who don't quarantine

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by zeeter

...


I was referring to the quarantine prior to adding a new fish to a tank - not treating one. Certainly when treating a fish in quarantine I would keep them in there as long as necessary.

So, you propose to pull all the fish out when you find out one of the fish is inflicted with some parasite or disease? Or do you propose to go through an endless cycle of just pulling out the one fish that shows issues and leave the rest behind to keep infecting others including the one that just went through QT?

Let's not pretend we're doing these fish any favors. We're keeping them captive in glass cages for years on end and denying them both their natural habitat and the ability to follow their instincts. We're matching them with fish that they may not ever see in the wild just because we like their colors. We keep them in water that most likely is not ideal for them compared to their natural homes. We keep them at the mercy of power failures and faulty equipment.

No pretending. But I still consider my fish a pet and I take all my pets to get shots and vaccinated as soon as I get them. Same with fish. Straight into a QT. I care for all my pets and hate too loose any of them even if they only cost $1. Heck even people get vaccinations as soon as they are born and through out their life. But I guess some people are adamant against that too...

Don't confuse acceptance with complacency. I care about my fish and do all I can to keep them safe and buy from medicated tanks at the LFS to ensure health.

LFS do not quarantine or medicate high enough to kill off everything. Just enough to fight it back... Even Diver Den who does do a QT advises that everyone use a QT when buying from them because they do not provide a full QT process. Just enough to make sure the fish is eating and is acclimated to aquarium life.

Personally, while I rank all life as important I am more inclined to believe the loss of a dog or cat is of higher significance than that of a fish. That doesn't mean I like to see fish die, it just means that something that I can take for a walk or have take a nap on my lap means a little more to me than a fish.

If everyone were honest, if they lost a Scopas Tang to disease they'd be disappointed, but they wouldn't dig a grave in the back yard like they would for Rover. Fish are not domesticated pets. They are wild animals that we keep trapped in our homes. That doesn't make their lives less significant; it just makes their meaning to us have less of a personal impact.

I will agree that I would feel worse about loosing my dog but I do feel really bad when I loose a fish and it's something I could have prevented. I lost an flame angel and a couple other fish to fluke because I didn't QT. It was my fault. I felt absolutely horrible and will do what I can to reduce risk where I can. I QT everything, battery backups, battery powered air stones and power inverters to run things off my car if needed are some of the things I do to help prevent deaths I could prevent.

Btw, some people do bury their fish. I've done it before for my significant other and have heard of others doing it as well. Some fish and other creatures in our tanks can and do form a relationship with their owners.

[110galreef]

Jason I hope your a vegetarian too after all your comments....

These discussions get so heated on here.

Back to OP:
1.) you need to adjust your stocking more appropriately.
2.) Again, I have never QT'd in 7 years and never had an issue. SO it is ok to do. Stock carfeully and slowly too. Pick healthy specimens from reputable online or LFS suppliers.

[BIG_KAHUNA]

ok I didn't read the whole thread but is it really possible to eliminate ich in a tank all together? Just the other day I pulled a blue hippo out of my tank who had been with me for 8 months. Had ich when I got her (i did QT). Treatment worked. Into the thank for 8 months. so I pull her out and straight into a NEWLY setup QT before I could take her to my moms tank. She broke out in a horrible case of ich in 2hrs. So she had ich the whole time with zero evidence of it. And none of the other fish show signs of infection? how do you explain this?

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by jason2459

I will agree that I would feel worse about loosing my dog but I do feel really bad when I loose a fish and it's something I could have prevented. I lost an flame angel and a couple other fish to fluke because I didn't QT. It was my fault. I felt absolutely horrible and will do what I can to reduce all risk in loose fish. I QT everything, battery backups, battery powered air stones and power inverters to run things off my car if needed are some of the things I do to help prevent deaths I could prevent.

Btw, some people do bury their fish. I've done it before for my significant other and have heard of others doing it as well. Some fish and other creatures in our tanks can and do form a relationship with their owners.

I am the same way. Fish are very important to me and I don't consider them any less than mammal pets. I know a lot of people don't care about them as much because they can't pet the fish. Fish are, however, every bit as intelligent and personable as dogs or cats.

I bury my fish in my backyard when they die.

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by BIG_KAHUNA

ok I didn't read the whole thread but is it really possible to eliminate ich in a tank all together? Just the other day I pulled a blue hippo out of my tank who had been with me for 8 months. Had ich when I got her (i did QT). Treatment worked. Into the thank for 8 months. so I pull her out and straight into a NEWLY setup QT before I could take her to my moms tank. She broke out in a horrible case of ich in 2hrs. So she had ich the whole time with zero evidence of it. And none of the other fish show signs of infection? how do you explain this?

Of course. ich is a parasite and you either have it or you don't. If dogs can receive treatments and be made free of lice and ticks, so can fish.

Your tank had ich ALL this time. The reason why you didn't see symptoms is because the fish were healthy enough to fight off most of the ich attack and only get minor infections in the gills, where they are not visible to eyes. That's why we advocate use of QT and treat every fish prophylactically to eliminate ich before putting it into the DT.

[110galreef]

Originally Posted by sandwi54

I know a lot of people don't care about them as much because they can't pet the fish. Fish are, however, every bit as intelligent and personable as dogs or cats.

I pet my fish....and hand feed many of them. Mine have a ton of personality...and attitude!

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by 110galreef

I pet my fish....and hand feed many of them. Mine have a ton of personality...and attitude!

i do too haha...

[BIG_KAHUNA]

Originally Posted by sandwi54

Of course. ich is a parasite and you either have it or you don't. If dogs can receive treatments and be made free of lice and ticks, so can fish.

Your tank had ich ALL this time. The reason why you didn't see symptoms is because the fish were healthy enough to fight off most of the ich attack and only get minor infections in the gills, where they are not visible to eyes. That's why we advocate use of QT and treat every fish prophylactically to eliminate ich before putting it into the DT.

So you treat every fish you get as if it has ich?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by 110galreef

Jason I hope your a vegetarian too after all your comments....

These discussions get so heated on here.

Back to OP:
1.) you need to adjust your stocking more appropriately.
2.) Again, I have never QT'd in 7 years and never had an issue. SO it is ok to do. Stock carfeully and slowly too. Pick healthy specimens from reputable online or LFS suppliers.

LOL no. I'm not a vegetarian and grew up working on a farm butchering animals and eating them.

I have no problems with people not QTing either as it's their choice but I wish people would stop giving excuses why QT can't be done and just say the truth. That either because a person doesn't want to wait for the QT processes to put a fish in a tank, lazy, or whatever. Stress isn't a good excuse as it can be used as a stress relief.

Money isn't an issue because it can be done for under $30 which costs less then having to buy another fish(I've done it.) Space... can easily be done on the floor, counter top, under the stand, in the bathroom... a 5gallon bucket hung from the ceiling... be creative. There's really no good excuse that can't be argued against besides a person just up front saying "I do not want to quarantine flat out period. I don't care if the fish get sick/infected/attacked with parasites I will keep feeding them and hope for the best." Which is just fine with me. This has been done time and time again for many many years. Look at PaulB's setup. As far as I know he does not QT. He has a hospital tank where he can treat or separate a fish that is stressed and has done it for 40 some odd years. That's awesome.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by BIG_KAHUNA

ok I didn't read the whole thread but is it really possible to eliminate ich in a tank all together? ...

Yes it is extremely possible to eliminate a parasite that can only be introduced by adding new things to your tank. The parasite can come in from new live rock, new live sand, new macro algae, new corals, new clean up crews... etc. Ich is a parasite and can not just pop up out of no where. It goes through stages and as long as it is properly treated it can be eliminated. As long as new additions to the tank is treated it can remain eliminated.

[sandwi54]

Originally Posted by BIG_KAHUNA

So you treat every fish you get as if it has ich?

That is correct. There are debates on the use of this prophylactic treatment. A few members and I advocate this because we want to fully eliminate the possibility of introducing ich into DT, since minor infections of ich are often not detectable (as you've already seen).

I have yet to lose a fish through prophylactic treatments, and I have done this at least 30 times already.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by BIG_KAHUNA

So you treat every fish you get as if it has ich?

Personally, I fresh water dip everything that can be fresh water dipped, or iodine dipped, or formalin dipped etc. all depending on what I'm adding into QT.

Going the route of fish here's a quick basic run down:

- I setup the QT for the fishes needs. Most often just a plastic container, a bunch of PVC piping connected together, a Heater, a clip on light, and a sponge filer.
- Find out what they were eating and have that on hand
- I fresh water dip for 5 minutes and then add to QT.
- Over a two weeks period I make sure the fish keeps eating and transition over to what I normally feed which is a wide variety anyways and may already be what they were eating
- Start prazipro treatment
- Make sure the fish keep eating
- starting the second week treatment of prazipro if the fish can handle copper and is still eating I start with that.
- after 6 weeks of treatments is over and I haven't observed any other issues they go to the DT
- If I find other issues come up like bacterial infections because open sores got infected where a parasite was I treat antibiotics. Then once the fish is healthy into the DT they go.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by sandwi54

That is correct. There are debates on the use of this prophylactic treatment. A few members and I advocate this because we want to fully eliminate the possibility of introducing ich into DT, since minor infections of ich are often not detectable (as you've already seen).

I have yet to lose a fish through prophylactic treatments, and I have done this at least 30 times already.

+1 I can't imagine endangering all the fish in one of my DTs because I let a parasite in. Plus, new fish acclimate to tank life easier in the peace & quiet of a good QT. I have never seen any decent book on our hobby that doesn't consider a QT/HT a MANDATORY piece of equipment. (Yeah, this is a recording.) BTW, I get more attached to my fish than I like to admit. I don't personally bury a deceased fish, but they do end buried up in the backyard too. That's where my septic tank is located.

[zeeter]

Originally Posted by jason2459

So, you propose to pull all the fish out when you find out one of the fish is inflicted with some parasite or disease? Or do you propose to go through an endless cycle of just pulling out the one fish that shows issues and leave the rest behind to keep infecting others including the one that just went through QT?

I not sure we're on the same wavelength here. I'm talking about buying a fish from the store and putting it into quarantine for up to six months if it was up to some people on these boards. I think you're confusing that with what I would do if a fish that was already in the tank got sick. Two different issues.

Originally Posted by jason2459

LFS do not quarantine or medicate high enough to kill off everything. Just enough to fight it back... Even Diver Den who does do a QT advises that everyone use a QT when buying from them because they do not provide a full QT process. Just enough to make sure the fish is eating and is acclimated to aquarium life.

Everyone advises using a QT. Heck - I even advise it. It certainly is the best thing overall for the fish. I would deal with the extra stress if it would be better for my fish. And btw, my LFS used a sophisticated medication system that was more robust than your standard system. I just don't have the space for one and other than one time everything has worked out ok for me.

Originally Posted by jason2459

I will agree that I would feel worse about loosing my dog but I do feel really bad when I loose a fish and it's something I could have prevented. I lost an flame angel and a couple other fish to fluke because I didn't QT. It was my fault. I felt absolutely horrible and will do what I can to reduce risk where I can. I QT everything, battery backups, battery powered air stones and power inverters to run things off my car if needed are some of the things I do to help prevent deaths I could prevent.

I feel bad, too. However it sounds like you're going a bit overboard there, quarantining air stones and such.

Originally Posted by jason2459

Btw, some people do bury their fish. I've done it before for my significant other and have heard of others doing it as well. Some fish and other creatures in our tanks can and do form a relationship with their owners.

The only fish I ever felt a connection to was a Hippo Tang that I got as a baby. Since I only have a 75gl tank I had to sell him when he became a young adult. When I bought him at around an inch long (and at $19.99!) I knew I couldn't keep him forever; but he was doing a lot better in my 75gl than in the little 1' x 1' bin at TFP. Plus my LFS gives a 1/3 credit and sells them for $79.99, so I made out on the deal. Yet giving him up after raising him from a baby was a bit sad.

I'm sure people feel a relationship, but it's not the same as with a domesticated pet that actually might care for you. The only thing a fish cares about from you is when you're going to feed it. I feel a personal failure when one of my fish dies due to something I did - such as buying those blue reef chromis that, in retrospect, looked sick in the store.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by zeeter

I feel bad, too. However it sounds like you're going a bit overboard there, quarantining air stones and such.

I was just describing a few things I do to help prevent a fishes demise like battery operated air stones that kick on when the power goes out. Battery operated water pumps and so on. I don't QT dry goods though I do rinse everything that is a dry good that goes in the water in a vinegar bath to remove oils or other possible contaminants.