Nitrate Factory

[Palting]

I have to agree that this is probably the most even-handed and the most informative thread about bioballs and biowheels I have read on RC in the 2 years I've been posting here.

This, however is the exception. Most threads with the terms biowheels and bioballs bring up the term "nitrate factory", and when read in the the context it was written, the reader comes away with the impression that it is an absolutely terrible thing, and that any tank with bioballs or biowheels is doomed to certain and unavoidable failure!!

[tmz]

"nitrate factory"

I like words and won't give up a fine descriptive phrase like "nitrate factory" just because some have implied or inferred a derisive connotation to it in some of the hobby based vernacular.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In the context of having a complete discussion, I think it is also very well worth asking whether there is any benefit to ever having bioballs or similar media in a reef aquarium.

I would contend that the answer is clearly no unless it is a bare bottom tank with no significant amount of live rock. There are no real cases that I have ever heard of where an established reef aquarium has elevated levels of ammonia because the live rock and sand (and other surfaces) cannot properly handle the nitrification of ammonia.

[seventhz]

Originally Posted by tmz

"nitrate factory"

I like words and won't give up a fine descriptive phrase like "nitrate factory" just because some have implied or inferred a derisive connotation to it in some of the hobby based vernacular.

I'm not very sharp yet in regards to aquarium chemistry and exactly how all the bacteria breaks down different nutrients but essentially it is a "nitrate factory" right? I mean, we employ such things to break down ammonia and nitrite which in turn produce nitrate... would it make people feel better if we refered to it as a "nitrite factory"? Sorry, that was a poor attempt at humor :P So is that the purpose of the slow trickle effect over the bioballs? So that the oxygen is depleted by the time it makes it's way further down into an anoxic zone where other bacteria can break down the nitrate effectively? I'm really diggin' this thread by the way, lots of interesting opinions and lots of information

[seventhz]

[QUOTE=Randy Holmes-Farley;20050806]As folks have mentioned, I too do not think nutrient reduction is the most important reason to do water changes. Almost never does that keep them adequately low, and there are much better ways (organic carbon dosing including pellets and soluble organics, macroalgae, turf algae, deep sand, live rock, skimming denitrators of various sorts, GFO and other phosphate binders, etc)

I definately do agree though that routine water changes are not very effective at reducing nutrient levels... if your nitrates are at 20ppm and you do a 10% water change, then you've only reduced the level to 18ppm... do it again, now you're at 16.2ppm, then 14.58ppm, then 13.12ppm, and so on. But I'm just stating the obvious though am I not? I agree with Holmes-Farley, the system should be balanced between bio-load and bacterial population and not just counting on water changes to keeps things in check... that is the ideal situation anyways

[dzfish17]

Im diggin it too. I dont use the term "nitrate factory" because it doesnt sit well with some people but we might as well call it what it is. Im just wondering about the rock that I used in my tank. I bought 500 lbs of dry rock from marcorocks and the rock is not as porous as some of the other rock out there. Can denitrification still occur in this type of rock?

[ken55]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

In the context of having a complete discussion, I think it is also very well worth asking whether there is any benefit to ever having bioballs or similar media in a reef aquarium.

I would contend that the answer is clearly no unless it is a bare bottom tank with no significant amount of live rock. There are no real cases that I have ever heard of where an established reef aquarium has elevated levels of ammonia because the live rock and sand (and other surfaces) cannot properly handle the nitrification of ammonia.

Well, I'm disappointed. I had the understanding that the crushed coral I'm currently using was a prime suspect for a nitrate that never gets to the goal of zero. Back to the drawing board for me.

[sporto0]

Originally Posted by ken55

Well, I'm disappointed. I had the understanding that the crushed coral I'm currently using was a prime suspect for a nitrate that never gets to the goal of zero. Back to the drawing board for me.

Ken, it's not so much that crushed coral becomes a nitrate producer as it does in collecting detritus & becoming a phosphate source, it will eventually begin to leach phosphates back into the water colum & begin to fuel nuisance algae along with nitrates & a light source. I have had first hand experience with this.


Gentlemen, thanks for the great responses & very detailed information, I can appreciate your arguments on why you feel the term nitrate factory is appropriate, however it is a rarity that such knowledgeable individuals such as yourselves start or interject on these type threads with the proper explanation & connotations behind the term & more times than not if someone has a nitrate problem or question, the first thing that gets blamed is bio-media without ever trying to diagnose the greater problem. That being said, I will, whenever possible try to explain why a nitrate factory may contribute but also may not be the main problem as well. I never advocate for someone to start a reef using bio-media as their main biological filter, just like I would never suggest to somone who has been successful with it to take it off line.

I thank you again, as I have learned a little bit more about the complicated process of dentrification.

[Palting]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

In the context of having a complete discussion, I think it is also very well worth asking whether there is any benefit to ever having bioballs or similar media in a reef aquarium.

I would contend that the answer is clearly no unless it is a bare bottom tank with no significant amount of live rock. There are no real cases that I have ever heard of where an established reef aquarium has elevated levels of ammonia because the live rock and sand (and other surfaces) cannot properly handle the nitrification of ammonia.

I think this, as stated by Randy, is the best point yet in this thread.

Me, I started with biowheels because.......well......just because! LOL!!!

Truth be told, my set-up came as a commplete kit. Tank, stand, canopy, lights, sump, pumps, etc, etc, etc, and the sump was based on two giant biowheels. With the success I had in the distant past with bioballs, I knew this would work. And it does. To make a long story short, the giant biowheel sump was convenient, and for a completely new setup with no real DIY involved, relatively cheap and easy.

What gets me is how quick people will jump in and insist that the problem is the biowheel/bioball, regardless of what the poster is asking about. If the question is about whether the tank can support a tang or a mandarin, and the poster just happens to mention that he has bioball/biowheel filter, the answer is invariably "remove the bioball/biowheel because they are nitrate factories". It is as if you remove the bioball/biowheels, and the tang will live happy, the mandarin will get fat, there will be no cyano, there will be no algae, lots and lots of coraline, all the coral will grow large and colorful.......LOL!!!

[Sport507]

I must admit when I saw this thread a couple of days a ago I thought oh boy, here comes the lines in the sand. I’m so impressed how the highly experienced members of our community stated their view with respect and their vast knowledge of the nitrifying and denitrifying process and what this topic represents. This is close to Sticky IMO.

Anyone new to this hobby at least save this thread for later reference, it may not all makes sense right now but in the future you will understand what has been shared here.

Happy Friday and Happy Reefing.

[tmz]

So is that the purpose of the slow trickle effect over the bioballs? So that the oxygen is depleted by the time it makes it's way further down into an anoxic zone where other bacteria can break down the nitrate effectively? I'm really diggin' this thread by the way, lots of interesting opinions and lots of information
I think it's the opposite. The trickle through media with high surface area keeps lots of water surface exposed to the air and keeps the trickling water high in oxygen.

[tmz]

nitrate that never gets to the goal of zero

You may not mean that literally but zero is not a good goal ,imo. Corals and other organisms need some nitrate including the bacteria that consume it along with phosphate and organic carbon. . Upper reef levels are reported to be around 0.2ppm .

A number of aquarists who overdo reduction applications such as organic carbon dosing or sulfur reduction report nitrogen deficiencies and adverse effects on corals or PO4 levels. I personally think nitrogen deficiencies are hard to achieve in fed tanks with fish but may be an issue in some tanks. Hobby grade test equipment makes getting a true very low range reading virtually impossible in any case. Nonetheless, some find themselves dosing sources of nitrogen ( ammonia , potassium nitrate ,amino acidsetc)to put some N back. My mixed reefs do very well at .2 to .5 ppm and have flourished with 10ppm without ill effects or nuisance algae. LPs ,leathers and mushrooms seem to do better with a moderate level say 5ppm to 30ppm but most do fine at .2ppm or so in a well fed tank as they can grab some nutrients from the food or fish waste,ime.

[tmz]

Im diggin it too. I dont use the term "nitrate factory" because it doesnt sit well with some people but we might as well call it what it is. Im just wondering about the rock that I used in my tank. I bought 500 lbs of dry rock from marcorocks and the rock is not as porous as some of the other rock out there. Can denitrification still occur in this type of rock?

On it more than in it anyway. Yes, it'll work; more porosity increases surface area though. I use some of that rock. I cure it just like live rock as it can have quite a bit of dried up organics and PO4 stuck to it. I also use some lanthanum chloride to alleviate leaching phosphate if any occurs during the curing process..

[doctorgori]

ha a good revisit... as a "troll" on other forums, I've seen this "nitrate factory" thing go back-n-forth, albeit heatedly once....

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Originally Posted by ken55

Well, I'm disappointed. I had the understanding that the crushed coral I'm currently using was a prime suspect for a nitrate that never gets to the goal of zero. Back to the drawing board for me.

Crushed coral can be a concern if it traps a lot of detritus that would otherwise get export by skimming or siphoning.

OTOH, it should do a good job of helping out the conversion of ammonia to nitrite and nitrate.

[Mr. Demeanor]

I have a 125L that has a 3-4" sand bed and a wet/dry bioball sump. I have about 175 pounds of liverock that had been in the tank for a couple months. The sandbed and bioballs are about 9-10 years old and were never cleaned. Due an unrelated problem, I lost all my fish last summer (voltage leak). I have been maintaining the tank with a few shrimp, crabs, snails, star, etc. to keep the bio active until we have time to actually replace the tank with a new one.
My nitrates had been creeping up even with minimal feeding. I decided to remove my bio balls since I have a lot of rock and sand and such a small bio load. It was kind if an experiment to see what would happen to the nitrates which were 160ish regardless of water changes. They would drop after a water change and then be right back up within 4 days.
The plan was to remove about half of the bio balls then slowly remove the rest. The problem was they were almost impossible to remove. The sump design and my large hands didn't cooperate. It was such a PITA that once I had skinned my hand up trying to pull one bio ball out at a time I just kept going until they were all out.
I was really surprised at how clean they looked visually. There was no visible buildup or smell.
My nitrates immediately started to drop for the first time in a long time. With no water changes they went to almost zero quite quickly.....and then started to rise again! Now they are right back to 160ish. It was interesting to see them drop dramatically. I probably took them out to fast and had a rebound that will eventually correct itself however the tank is being broken down next month (hopefully) and replaced.
I just wanted to share this little experiment. Make of what you wish I guess.
The nitrates have remained high regardless of water changes again. I have now started my second experimenter by vodka dosing just to see what happens. My skimmer output has changed to a nastier consistency after only a few days.
I guess its nice to have a tank I can experiment with like this.

[bongarone]

The case against any wet-dry medium, especially bio balls, is that in the event of a long power outage, the biological media could dry up significantly and kill a large portion of the denitrifying bacteria. Reef aquarists are all about redundancy/fail safes, and bio ball filter designs don't offer much in this regard.

Any hang on the back filter can also be called a "nitrate factory" because the filter floss cartridges are too expensive to be swapped out every day or three and too flimsy to be washed properly. As a result, they capture detritus and let it decompose, which could otherwise have been skimmed out. A felt filter bag in a sump is much more durable and can be swapped out every few days prior to being washed with bleach in a standard washing machine.

[seventhz]

Originally Posted by tmz

So is that the purpose of the slow trickle effect over the bioballs? So that the oxygen is depleted by the time it makes it's way further down into an anoxic zone where other bacteria can break down the nitrate effectively? I'm really diggin' this thread by the way, lots of interesting opinions and lots of information
I think it's the opposite. The trickle through media with high surface area keeps lots of water surface exposed to the air and keeps the trickling water high in oxygen.

Okay, that was probably the dumbest question I've asked in quite a while... so where is the "smilie" for HUA? :P

[sporto0]

originally posted by bongarone
"Any hang on the back filter can also be called a "nitrate factory" because the filter floss cartridges are too expensive to be swapped out every day or three and too flimsy to be washed properly. As a result, they capture detritus and let it decompose, which could otherwise have been skimmed out. A felt filter bag in a sump is much more durable and can be swapped out every few days prior to being washed with bleach in a standard washing machine".[/QUOTE]


I'm sorry this is exactly what im talking about, now ALL HOB filters are nitrate factories, this is simply not true AT ALL, take out the bio-media, it does not matter if detritus debris is trapped in your sponges, it decompose into organic materials that enter the water column & can then be skimmed out, what difference does it make if it's sitting on your rocks, substrate or trapped in your felt filter bag???? I guess we should all stop using any kind of mechanical fliter, hey what about media reactors, they must be nitrate factories too, let's not stop there, refugiums trap detritus = nitrate factory, chillers collect gunk = nitrate factory, all dirty powerheads & pumps = nitrate factory. Truly ridiculous.

[tmz]

what difference does it make if it's sitting on your rocks, substrate or trapped in your felt filter bag???? I guess we should all stop using any kind of mechanical fliter, hey what about media reactors....Truly ridiculous
The difference is exposure to highly oxygenated water which encourages the nitrification part of the cylce but not denitrification.
Detritus is primarlily decaying organic matter and some precipitant materials ; it does not break down to organics since it is organic. To the extent the organic matter it is not consumed by invertebrates or other organisms like bacteria and other mircofuana in a reef tank tank, it degrades to inorganic nitrate and inorganic phosphate(PO4 species) as well as some dissolved organic carbon(DOM).
The skimmer will not remove inorganics(NO3 and PO4). Some of the DOM may or may not have affinity for the air/water interface in the skimmer depending on whether it is relatively amphipathic , hydorphylic or hydrophobic. If GAC(graulated activated carbon )is used it binds some DOM but has strong affinity for those that are hydrophobic and won't take out those that are hydrophylilc.
As for detritus accumulations blowing off accumulations and/ or minimizing accumulation with good flow puts it in the water column where it is available for organisms or the skimmer can get a shot at as it it drives out some particulate matter. A bit of siphoning with water changes helps too.
Many like mechanical filtration;FWIW, I don't use any in my puddle except when I'm stirring things up which is very infrequent and then it's just a temporary filter sock over a drain until things settle down. Many run very sucessful reeftanks without mechanical filtration.. Why would I need it? What type of media reactors /refugia?There is no need to call someones post Truly ridiculous. It's rude and not helpful to open discussion and learning . It is especially temerarius when the argument deriding someone's post is angry ,convoluted and high in opinion while low in facts.

[tmz]

Originally Posted by seventhz

Okay, that was probably the dumbest question I've asked in quite a while... so where is the "smilie" for HUA? :P

I don't think it was a dumb question at all;questions about how things work are those that help us all learn.

[sporto0]

"It's rude and not helpful to open discussion and learning . It is especially temerarius when the argument deriding someone's post is angry ,convoluted and high in opinion while low in facts."
Really, my agrument is rash, heedless, thoughtless, imprudent, inconsiderate, indiscreet, unadvised, precipitate?

That's seem a bit rude to me as well as condescending & I notice you only find fault with my statements instead of the erroneous, false, mythical, untrue, unsupported by facts statement that all HOB filters are nitrate factories. Buy 2 sets of sponges = $7.50, switch them out weekly-not a nitrate factory. Live rocks are nitrate factories, sand beds are nitrate factories, fish tanks are nitrate factories, let's not use them.
I find plenty of your statements HIGH in opinion as well but I gave you far more respect, I'll take my experience & success over somebody's book explanation of how things are supposed to work, but do not always work out that way.

Truly high, problematic nitrates are caused by an overloaded, overfed & under maintained tank & not from the filtration systems. I guess that's a convoluted & false statement as well with high opinion & low facts. TRULY RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[funkejj]

Originally Posted by ken55

Well, I'm disappointed. I had the understanding that the crushed coral I'm currently using was a prime suspect for a nitrate that never gets to the goal of zero. Back to the drawing board for me.

I had 160 lbs of crushed coral in my system nitrates of 80+ from the get go. I could not reduce them over time with conventional means so I removed all of the crushed coral and replaced it with normal sugar fine sand. 6 + months later the highest amount of NO3 I have seen is 10 and that was a isolated incident. The fact of the matter is unless you vacuum your CC weekly to get the poop out you will have high nitrates in your tank. I know from experience.

[tmz]

TRULY RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop shouting and loose the attitude.

Typical MO employed too often on these boards. When there is nothing useful to say go to personal attack; use derision/ridicucle people; bully someone to accept an invalid point of view or to stop talking to get your way. Shout if necessary or just stomp your feet . Won't work even if you shout it with a page of !!!! and larger letters.. But you need to stop it.

Lest we loose the information in all the personal diatribe I''l iterate.
High flow oxygenated filtration areas produce nitrate. They are nitrate factories. Simple , clear with detailed explanations of the processes involved in the posts above.

My comments are based on experience and thougtful application of techniques that make sense and work. No need for you to accept them. Take it or leave it. The information is well presented in this thread by several folks. Others should have information enough to make informed decisions.
I have no idea what your agenda is; it seems pedantic with an interest in being perceived as right rather than finding out what's right. All I've seen in your posts is an odd abhorrence for the term nitrate factory( Do you rally "loathe" it) , a direct long excerpt from an article about live rock by another author which was at best tangential and mostly off point, and an attack on another poster who was raising a valid and interesting point.
The attack and ridicule was unwarranted,unprovoked and rude so I take issue with it and as I expected now the attack turns to me.
Stop.