Blue tang dead 3 days

[gonpostal]

Originally Posted by Envieddesigns

I dose because I read of calcium is low the snails shells dissolve so should I just do a water change to get my cal up instead?

Unless you have a lot of corals in your tank, there shouldn't be any need for you to dose calcium. You mentioned that you top off with RO/DI and you get your salt water from your LFS. I'm assuming also getting the RO/DI water from the LFS? If so, you'll be better off getting your own RO/DI unit and mixing your own water IMO. Any salt mix will have a sufficient level of calcium for the critters in your tank, and you can maintain your levels through water changes without having to dose anything.

[Hamsternuts]

A few points.

Saltwater does not hold oxygen as readily as fresh. I'm not sure if you're used to freshwater fish, but you really need surface agitation to oxygenate saltwater. You need more powerheads.

What are your top off procedures? It's possible that large salinity swings from topping off are stressing out your new fish. Keep in mind that a lot of lfs's don't keep their (fish) tanks at normal salinity. It saves money on salt and there is no need to. Also, how are you measuring salinty? Hydrometer or refractometer?

For good measure, buy new test kits. If the ones you have are bad this will keep happening. And I agree that your cycle was entirely too short. Nothing good in this hobby happens quickly.

[Envieddesigns]

Hey nuts, My top off procedure is ro/di water from LFS top off every 3 days when im able to see the water line below the lip on the tank. I also use a refractometer which I tuned with ro/di water prior to using. I agree on powerhead issue but I asked lfs when i bout my circulation pump if i needed anything else for my 55 beside that pump & they asked what do you have currently i said two hang on back carbon filters rated at 70g. He said you should be fine. So I didnt buy a power head. I'm going to sit on this tank for a few weeks more & see what happens, but LFS did say it was odd that i havent had to do a water change since I started it up on 5/1. I'm waiting for a spike in tests to do so. I mean i havent poofed the rocks with a turkey baster or anything. I clean only the front & side glass the back i leave & has some light brown algae spots on it.

[dannyp02908]

That much water evap in a 55 can cause a good salt swing. Consider an auto top off. Thats way, you only replenish a reservoir of freshwater and your salinity never moves.

Those HOB filters are rated for 70 gallon tanks. Not that they are moving much water. Water through carbon filters is slow so that the carbon has time to react with the water. They are barely helping your circulation. If money is an issue for circ pumps, hit up ebay. I got mine for 50 dollars for 2. They are rated 1300 gallons per hour each.

Stop listening to the LFS. All the best advice you will get will come from this forum. There are literally thousands upon thousands of people here that are far more experienced in this hobby than the majority of LFS employees.

Spend the money on a decent test kit. Instead of buying the Tetra test or API from LFS, go to Bulk Reef Supply online and look for something like red sea or elos.

[Envieddesigns]

Danny, what do you mean? what im replacing is evaporated water with ro/di not salt. Yea, prob, isnt money just opinions i got. i will jump on a power head.

[Braxibear]

Originally Posted by Envieddesigns

Danny, what do you mean? what im replacing is evaporated water with ro/di not salt. Yea, prob, isnt money just opinions i got. i will jump on a power head.

He means when your tank water evaporates, the salinity increases because the salt stays in the tank(less water+more salt=Higher salinity).

With a auto topoff, the RO/DI water is slowly being added to tank so there is really never a time when the water evaporates fast enough to cause a swing.

Hope that helps.

[Envieddesigns]

Ahh, Got it Bravo. OK see didnt know that. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

[Braxibear]

Good luck in the future. Hope it works out for you guys.

[bongarone]

I don't think 3 days of evap is enough to kill that many fish.

Something is seriously wrong, and the most likely culprit are either basic water parameters or toxins. Ignore anything your LFS says for now, because their help up to this point has not been effective.

I would do the following:

1. Get yourself an $8 bottle of 35ppt refractometer calibration fluid. Don't bother actually calibrating your refractometer. Instead, just do a simple comparison between the fluid and your tank water. They should match very closely.
2. Get yourself NEW ammonia and nitrite test kits (some test kits just give you bad results). My preference is Salifert over Seachem, Red Sea, and API. Test your water several times.

If neither of these steps reveal any problems, you could have some sort of toxin in your tank water, e.g. soap/detergent, fragrances/lotion, household cleaners, etc. The only way to get rid of it is water changes. Try 25% per week for 4 weeks.

At the very least, I would change 10% of the water weekly starting now.

[Envieddesigns]

Thanks, yea i use API for ammonia test & API with 5 readings test strips for no2/3 ph etc.

[Paul B]

It doesn't matter what your test kits read, a tank a few weeks old is to new to add tangs. The fish could have been collected with cyanide but it is hard to tell and contrary to popular opinion cyanide collected fish can look better and eat more than healthy fish, they just won't live very long.
I would wait a few months before adding expensive fish. Fish hate new water, all fish.
No new tank is healthy and the ammonia is much higher in a new tank.
Yes, even though your test kit reads it is fine. The types of bacteria in a tank take about 3 months to "start" to function properly.
Thats my opinion.

[keithhays]

You said that when you measured 12 days after setup there were no readings of any nitrogen or ammonia, this is very suspicious. What are your readings now? The only way you could have zero nitrates is if you never cycled. Nitrates are not produced until nitrite begins to be oxidized. How alive was this rock and sand? Is it covered in coraline, etc, etc. What did the gills look like when you found the fish? If they were red as if bleeding, it likely is because of ammonia or nitrite poisoning.

[Envieddesigns]

Hey guys, heres a pic of my rock & of the Tang when she was alive & looking good.

[Envieddesigns]

Keith, no red or anything on gils. Just on her top part of her body where that black stripe is it was looking pale. Guessing that comes after they die? i also have a video of her when she was hyding behind the rock with her rapid breathing.

[kissman]

Originally Posted by Envieddesigns

Hey nuts, My top off procedure is ro/di water from LFS top off every 3 days when im able to see the water line below the lip on the tank. I also use a refractometer which I tuned with ro/di water prior to using. I agree on powerhead issue but I asked lfs when i bout my circulation pump if i needed anything else for my 55 beside that pump & they asked what do you have currently i said two hang on back carbon filters rated at 70g. He said you should be fine. So I didnt buy a power head. I'm going to sit on this tank for a few weeks more & see what happens, but LFS did say it was odd that i havent had to do a water change since I started it up on 5/1. I'm waiting for a spike in tests to do so. I mean i havent poofed the rocks with a turkey baster or anything. I clean only the front & side glass the back i leave & has some light brown algae spots on it.

Take a look at your instructions I don't think you are supposed to use ro/di to calibrate a refractometer i think they sell a solution. Could be wrong. I would def get a skimmer, I have a 55g as well and I couldn't imagine running it with out one. I add top off water everyday to my sump. If I go three days the salinity in my tank would raise to high. while you have a chance I would start over and add a piece of shrimp to tank and let it cycle properly will take 6-8 weeks. Then start adding fish slowly. The reason is each time you add a fish bacteria needs to grow to consume the waste from the new fish. If you add them to quick they don't build up and you get an ammonia spike, nitrites spike. I would add 1 fish a month or 2. The best thing in saltwater is be patient. The only thing that happens fast is a crash! I have been doing a lot of reading on tangs because I want them too. I am going to do an upgarde so that I can. What I am finding out is that Tnags need a 6ft tank to be happy. If they are not happy they become stressed and get diseases and die. I would also stop using API they are not accurate. I would go with either Salifert or the new Red Sea Pro, and a Hanna HC736 for phosphates. Get a good quality skimmer the HOB filters and canister filters will become a nitrate factory if not cleaned every week. Buy yourself an RO/DI unit you never know when the LFS tests TDS or replace cartridges in it.

[keithhays]

I generally agree with kissman's last comments. I would suggest Janitorial Ammonia rather than shrimp, but other than that I would wait a couple months for a full cycleand then start adding slowly and with something more easily kept than tangs.

There are some LFS and even some threads were the suggestion is that if you start out with live rock and live sand that there isn't a need to wait for the cycle or that it is extremely short. The problem is once you disturb the live rock and live sand from where it was living, you will have massive bacterial die off; thus require a full cycle to regrow them.

btw, here is good thead for tangs and tank lengths:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1946007

[albano]

Originally Posted by keithhays

there are some lfs and even some threads were the suggestion is that if you start out with live rock and live sand that there isn't a need to wait for the cycle or that it is extremely short.

+1

Originally Posted by keithhays

the problem is once you disturb the live rock and live sand from where it was living, you will have massive bacterial die off; thus require a full cycle to regrow them.

-1

[on the spot]

I do not believe the tang conundrum has anything to do with the length or "quality" of this tanks "cycle". The cleaner shrimp are far more delicate and are doing fine.

my hunch is as others have suggested, inadequate gas exchange. I'll guess that if you were to look across the top of the tank, at a low angle, you would see a film floating on the water?

I suggest two purchases, both fairly cheap relative to the hobby. First, some powerheads. Koralia or something similar. I'd prefer more smaller pumps over fewer larger ones. Second, a hang on overflow. You'll use this to do your water changes. As you add the new water (slowly) the surface water will be drawn off into a waiting bucket. This will make water changes easier, so you will be more prone to do them regularly.

Best of luck.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by albano

+1


-1

hmmm...I will take it that you are in disagreement. I am not sure if it is my particular wording or if it is the idea that a new cylce is not needed, but for anyone reading this, I figure some reasoning behind what I said should be presented. The easiest non-scientific way to do this is by example.

A well respected vendor of live Rock and sand called Tampa Bay live Rock or Tampa Bay Saltwater has the following instructions after receiving their fully live products after a less than 24 hour period of the items being removed from their tanks and being presumably packed under the best circumstances with the buyer presumably waiting at the airport to pick-up the package off of the plane:

http://tbsaltwater.com/thepackage/setup.html

[albano]

Originally Posted by keithhays

A well respected vendor of live Rock and sand called Tampa Bay live Rock or Tampa Bay Saltwater has the following instructions

Well respected by who?
Selling LR makes them an authority on reef tanks?
ie: their instructions...The live sand goes in first...rock goes on top of sand...
NOT IMO

I wouldn't even try to guess how many tanks that I have moved &/or started 'instantly' WITHOUT problems.
LR can be moved from tank to container to tank without "a massive bacterial die off"...LS should definitely be rinsed and re-rinsed (till clean) before re-using.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by albano

Well respected by who?
Selling LR makes them an authority on reef tanks?
ie: their instructions...The live sand goes in first...rock goes on top of sand...
NOT IMO

I wouldn't even try to guess how many tanks that I have moved &/or started 'instantly' WITHOUT problems.
LR can be moved from tank to container to tank without "a massive bacterial die off"...LS should definitely be rinsed and re-rinsed (till clean) before re-using.

Fair enough, we all have our own ways of success. Perhaps, the time out of the water would make a difference.

[kissman]

Originally Posted by Envieddesigns

Thanks, yea i use API for ammonia test & API with 5 readings test strips for no2/3 ph etc.

Those are probably the worst test kits you could use! Buy salifert or the new red sea. Go with hanna ultra low posphorus for phosphates

[warlord239]

Idk if anyone said this or not because i didnt read every post but adding a bacteria with no ammonia source will make the bacteria ineffective...theres gotta be something for it to "feed" on

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by warlord239

Idk if anyone said this or not because i didnt read every post but adding a bacteria with no ammonia source will make the bacteria ineffective...theres gotta be something for it to "feed" on

I am glad you said that, something about it made me re-read the thread from the beginning. Sometimes I get a several responses in to different things and forget what the original issues were.

To recap, Dead Tangs, early in the cycle, possible no cycle, live rock transported in newspaper, Nitrate 0, nitrite 0, Ammonia 0

Back to the point, the one place that I was able find ammonia without surfactants is ACE hardware's 10% janitorial ammonia. Word of warning, if you can find Ammonium Chloride instead of Hydroxide, do it the stuff is truly noxious while you are working with it.

The goal is to have the tank consume 3ppm in 24 hours.

Ammonia Cycling Calculator:
http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/C...niaCycling.php


So in short add 3ppm AMM, wait until it reads zero.
Then test for Nitrites to read at or very near zero say .5.
Add 3ppm AMM again.
When AMM is zero and Nitrite is at or near zero in 24 hours begin testing for nitrate.
The reason you wait to test nitrate until nitrite is at or near zero is because of the way that nitrite/nitrate test kits work which is convert a portion of one to the other and then tell you how much of you have. In other words if you test for nitrates while you have elevated nitrites, you are may not be measuring nitrates at all. Some test kits may work differently from titration, and your mileage of course may vary.
I use a zero or almost zero reading on Nitrite to begin testing for nitrates.
Change water until Nitrates are where you want them.