Calling all concerned about LED lighting & Control

scolley · 09/07/2012, 09:20 PM

Fellow Aquarists,

LED lighting options are exploding. It seems every month new, exciting LED lighting options appear on the market. Some of the recent better models provide wonderful control of lighting color, intensity and timing. Yet there are numerous other products - aquarium controllers - that also provide tremendous control of the aquarium environment. But that control often excludes control of LED lighting due to proprietary LED control protocols.

Impact?

New LED lights are flooding the market that do not work with existing aquarium controllers. LED vendors must bear the cost to develop proprietary controllers and then pass the cost onto the aquarium community. At the same time many aquarists that have already invested in expensive and highly functional controllers must bear both the frustration of purchasing LED controllers at additional cost, but also the fact that the new LED comptroller does not cooperate with their existing controller's capabilities for cohesive control under a single controller.

I am frustrated by this lack of coordination of LED control protocols. Circulation pump vendors have long since published open control protocols. Not to mention the additional cost to aquarists that have already invested in controllers.

Before it's too late, IMO it is in the best interest of both vendors and aquatists for the vendor community to adopt common, cross-platform, compatable and open standards for the control of LED lighting.

If you agree, please post your agreement and/or thoughts. Your contribution can help influence our hobby's industry. Please don't miss this chance. Too few agreeing posts will provide vendors with ammunition for continuing their proprietary - and mutually expensive - ways.

Thanks!'

SteveWong · 09/08/2012, 12:40 AM

Hear! Hear! I fully agree with this! I just got an Apex system and am looking to upgrade my MH lights to an LED system. Having it controlled from the Apex would be ideal. I'll more likely choose a vendor who has a compatible light.

There's always a tug of war between customization and market differentiating features (eg. lightning effects, custom colors) vs a standard with a lowest-common denominator feature set.

I'll bet the #1 reason why you won't see early cooperation is exactly the fact that there are so many vendors now fighting for a piece of the new pie -- thus more spoils to the vendor with a cool new feature set.

Consider this: for a larger tank, a commercial LED system will cost over $2500 and the lights will last 50,000 hours. Once you buy in, you are very unlikely to upgrade again. With no bulb replacement costs, and a long fixture life, many may make this a one-time purchase.

Given that short term cooperation is unlikely, I'd be willing to accept a next step of a vendor making a controller interface to the Apex controller (similar to how there are Apex to Vertex pump interfaces).

I'm still in full support of a universal control standard, so don't think the above refutes your stance!

ksquid · 09/08/2012, 01:09 AM

Agree

Can you imagine of PCs didn't use 1 of 2 platforms? Look at pc memory. It the pin count, not the manufacturer that counts.

I could go on but, the idea is easy to see as being a good one. Thanks for bringing it up.

mcgyvr · 09/08/2012, 08:03 AM

Any LED light manufacturer that doesn't implement a 0-10V dimming per EN 60929 Annex E is NOT a vendor I would use. Same goes for any controller manufacturers..

The "standard" is already out there. If a manufacturer chooses a different protocol that's their choice just as its your choice to buy it or not.

For the most part a lot of this is based off the available LED driver IC's and the dimming scheme they utilize.. and not these LED light makers.

Gbear · 09/08/2012, 09:32 AM

Agree, but I tend to think things like this always happen with new tech.
If a standard is put out there too early it stunts the development of new ideas.
It will come to pass that only a couple systems will win out and all the tank controler vendors will need to support them for market wide plug and play integration. Right now I think the LED OEM's spend a lot of time working against each other. Perhaps 2 or 3 of the biggest players could try to do what you are suggesting. It would be like daring the others not to follow suit.

Great topic.

SteveWong · 09/08/2012, 10:56 AM

While there are standards for dimming, I don't know how a standard or even current controllers will be able to activate the newer features like custom color, cloud, lightning effects, individual led addressing, etc.

Bretts05jeep · 09/08/2012, 10:59 AM

I want to add LEDs to my T5 set up and will not buy anything that cant be controlled by my apex. If I cant find anything than I wont do it.

mcgyvr · 09/09/2012, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveWong

While there are standards for dimming, I don't know how a standard or even current controllers will be able to activate the newer features like custom color, cloud, lightning effects, individual led addressing, etc.

It doesn't matter.. The existing 0-10V dimming standard takes care of that.
Custom color/cloud/lightning is all firmware specific tasks and is irrelevant to how dimming is done. Individual led addressing again is simply moving to 1 driver IC (or driver channel) per LED (or smaller group of LEDs) and would still be handled by 0-10V dimming. Addressing IC's is done via i2c or any other similar method.

The 0-10V standard is not new either.. Its been around for YEARS and is implemented by many other industries.

I'm really not sure of the point of this thread.. The standard is already out there and simply needs to be followed.. Don't buy it if it doesn't do 0-10V

Fish Junction · 09/09/2012, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Don't buy it if it doesn't do 0-10V

+1 consumers dictate standards.

scolley · 09/09/2012, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

I'm really not sure of the point of this thread.. The standard is already out there and simply needs to be followed.. Don't buy it if it doesn't do 0-10V

Regardless of whether or not you believe a sufficient standard exists today - if it's not being adopted by LED vendors - then it does us no good. So the point of this thread is simple - if you want to LED vendors to stop saddling us with the cost of their proprietary controllers, and instead let us can control their LEDs with a controller of our own choice, then please say so here.

Enough people agreeing might actually influence future vendor behavior.

09/08/2012, 01:09 AM	#3
ksquid Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 7	Agree Can you imagine of PCs didn't use 1 of 2 platforms? Look at pc memory. It the pin count, not the manufacturer that counts. I could go on but, the idea is easy to see as being a good one. Thanks for bringing it up. __________________ I know it's algae, atleast something is alive in my tank.

09/08/2012, 08:03 AM	#4
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	Any LED light manufacturer that doesn't implement a 0-10V dimming per EN 60929 Annex E is NOT a vendor I would use. Same goes for any controller manufacturers.. The "standard" is already out there. If a manufacturer chooses a different protocol that's their choice just as its your choice to buy it or not. For the most part a lot of this is based off the available LED driver IC's and the dimming scheme they utilize.. and not these LED light makers. __________________ Who me?

09/07/2012, 09:20 PM	#1
scolley ARKSC Founding Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: CT Posts: 2,823	Calling all concerned about LED lighting & Control Fellow Aquarists, LED lighting options are exploding. It seems every month new, exciting LED lighting options appear on the market. Some of the recent better models provide wonderful control of lighting color, intensity and timing. Yet there are numerous other products - aquarium controllers - that also provide tremendous control of the aquarium environment. But that control often excludes control of LED lighting due to proprietary LED control protocols. Impact? New LED lights are flooding the market that do not work with existing aquarium controllers. LED vendors must bear the cost to develop proprietary controllers and then pass the cost onto the aquarium community. At the same time many aquarists that have already invested in expensive and highly functional controllers must bear both the frustration of purchasing LED controllers at additional cost, but also the fact that the new LED comptroller does not cooperate with their existing controller's capabilities for cohesive control under a single controller. I am frustrated by this lack of coordination of LED control protocols. Circulation pump vendors have long since published open control protocols. Not to mention the additional cost to aquarists that have already invested in controllers. Before it's too late, IMO it is in the best interest of both vendors and aquatists for the vendor community to adopt common, cross-platform, compatable and open standards for the control of LED lighting. If you agree, please post your agreement and/or thoughts. Your contribution can help influence our hobby's industry. Please don't miss this chance. Too few agreeing posts will provide vendors with ammunition for continuing their proprietary - and mutually expensive - ways. Thanks!' __________________ - Steve Longing for "fact based" reef keeping - with hearsay, non sequiturs, dogma and other types of bad “information” removed from our discussions.

09/08/2012, 12:40 AM	#2
SteveWong Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 67	Hear! Hear! I fully agree with this! I just got an Apex system and am looking to upgrade my MH lights to an LED system. Having it controlled from the Apex would be ideal. I'll more likely choose a vendor who has a compatible light. There's always a tug of war between customization and market differentiating features (eg. lightning effects, custom colors) vs a standard with a lowest-common denominator feature set. I'll bet the #1 reason why you won't see early cooperation is exactly the fact that there are so many vendors now fighting for a piece of the new pie -- thus more spoils to the vendor with a cool new feature set. Consider this: for a larger tank, a commercial LED system will cost over $2500 and the lights will last 50,000 hours. Once you buy in, you are very unlikely to upgrade again. With no bulb replacement costs, and a long fixture life, many may make this a one-time purchase. Given that short term cooperation is unlikely, I'd be willing to accept a next step of a vendor making a controller interface to the Apex controller (similar to how there are Apex to Vertex pump interfaces). I'm still in full support of a universal control standard, so don't think the above refutes your stance!

09/08/2012, 09:32 AM	#5
Gbear Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 115	Agree, but I tend to think things like this always happen with new tech. If a standard is put out there too early it stunts the development of new ideas. It will come to pass that only a couple systems will win out and all the tank controler vendors will need to support them for market wide plug and play integration. Right now I think the LED OEM's spend a lot of time working against each other. Perhaps 2 or 3 of the biggest players could try to do what you are suggesting. It would be like daring the others not to follow suit. Great topic.

09/08/2012, 10:56 AM	#6
SteveWong Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 67	While there are standards for dimming, I don't know how a standard or even current controllers will be able to activate the newer features like custom color, cloud, lightning effects, individual led addressing, etc.

09/08/2012, 10:59 AM	#7
Bretts05jeep Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: McHenry, IL Posts: 510	I want to add LEDs to my T5 set up and will not buy anything that cant be controlled by my apex. If I cant find anything than I wont do it.