New 240 setup / preventing Ich

dedvalson · 10/10/2012, 07:00 AM

This is a somewhat long post, please bear with me.

I am in the process of planning a move from my current 90 gallon reef to a 240 gallon reef.

I have also been battling marine ich now for close to 2 years. I am hoping to use the opportunity of the move to the new tank to finally destroy this disease.

First, a short background, when I first observed the ich, I pretty quickly did what I should have done in the first place, I set up a 30 gallon QT. At that time I had a wet/dry on my reef so I moved a lot of the wet/dry balls into a canister filter for the QT. I then moved all of my fish to the QT (which involved tearing the rocks all out to get them).

In the QT, I treated them with hyposalinity (1.09) for 4 weeks while letting the reef tank run without fish but otherwise as normal. After the 4 weeks, I slowly raised the salinity up to normal in the QT. During the week I was raising the salinity and in the week after that I observed no signs of Ich whatsoever.

I left the fish in the QT for another 4 weeks, for a total of 9 weeks with no sign of Ich. At that point I moved the fish back to the reef and figured that Ich was gone.

I observed the fish for 3 months in the reef and never saw any sign of Ich, so I was pretty happy. Since I was planning the move to the 240, I recently bought a small Kole Tang. I figured he would be fine in the 90 since he was small till I moved him to the 240. So I put him in my QT with hyposaline water (again 1.09). I left him in there for 3 weeks and then raised the salinity to normal and observed him for another 2 weeks and saw no sign of Ich. So, after 5 weeks in QT, I moved him to the main tank. Within 3 days the top edge of his dorsal fin and the tips of his pectoral fins all show white spots that I am pretty sure are Ich. None of the other fish show any sign of Ich whatsoever, just the Tang. All of the fish are eating very well, including the Tang. I am assuming that the Ich never really went away. It was sitting in my display tank the whole time waiting for a Tang to attack. Anyway, it is there now.

As far as immediate treatment goes, I think I am going to do nothing. I can't catch the tang without tearing the tank down and the other inhabitants have been doing fine (and are still doing fine) with the Ich in the tank. So I am going to keep the water parameters as perfect as I can and hope the Tang can fight off the Ich on his own, at least for now.

Here are my water parameters BTW:

Temperature 80.4
pH 8.1 (day) 8.0 (night)
Ammonia 0 (Lamotte)
Nitrite 0 (Lamotte)
Nitrate 0 - 0.5 (sometimes it is there sometimes not (Lamotte)
Alkalinity 10.1 DKH (Hannah)
Calcium 412 (Hannah)
Phosphate 0 (Hannah)
Magnesium 1230 (Salifert)

I am in the process of planning a new 240 gallon reef to replace my current 90 and I am trying to figure out how to use the transfer of stock to the new 240 as a way to finally eradicate this disease for good.

I have concoted 2 plans, and I would like to solicit the opinions of some of you very experienced and knowlegable people. Here are my two thoughts:

Plan A:

Set up the new 240 gallon system using entirely dry materials (dry rock, dry sand, etc.) In essence, create a sterile system. I am thinking I need to use dead rock to make sure I am not bringing in Ich cysts on the rock.
Fill the new system with hyposaline (1.09) water. Since the rock and sand are dead, there will be nothing to die off in the hyposaline environment.
Cycle the new system using the hyposaline water and ammonia introduction. But I would need to get some seed bacteria from somewhere. I can't take it from my old tank, it might bring the Ich over. I can't get it from my LFS, all their tanks have Ich. I am not sure where to get the seed bacteria.
Once the new tank is cycled, move all of the fish to it. Rely on the bacterial culture in the rock and sand and use water changes if needed for ammonia control or possibly Seachem Prime.
After 4 weeks or so bring the Salinity up to full.
After some long time (maybe 3 months total) move the sand, rock and coral over from the old system.

Plan B:

Set up the new system as described above (with all dead dry sand / rock) and don't cycle it.
Move all of the rock, sand and coral from the old system to the new system immediately. Since this will remove all of my biological filtration, the old system where the fish were left behind is going to spike ammonia. So I guess I would need to control that with Prime and Water changes.
Keep the fish in the old system and reduce the salinity to 1.09.
After 4 weeks, take the salinity in the old system up to full.
After a total of 12 weeks, move the fish to the new system.

I am leaning towards plan A because it puts the fish in a bigger tank for their hyposalinity treatment making ammonia control easier. However, Plan A involves disturbing all the rocks in the first tank twice, once to get the fish out and again when I move them to the new tank.

I would really love to hear other suggestions, I have tried everything I know of to avoid Ich and still have it.

All of this leads me to a huge question that I have been unable to answer going forward though. Assuming this works and that I have a new 240 gallon Ich free tank, how do I keep it that way. As I see it, there are 2 situations to contend with:

1. I am going to want to introduce new fish at times. I plan to use my existing 90 as a QT, probably with a wet dry filter. So I put the fish in the QT. But no matter how long I leave them there, they might still have Ich in their gills, so I think I need to treat all new fish with hyposalinity for at least 2weeks to make sure they don't. Is there a better way?

2. I am going to want to add corals. It is likely that the rocks on the base of the coral could harbor Ich cysts. The only way I can think of to make sure they don't is to keep these corals in the QT with full salinity for 8-12 weeks. But I won't really have adequate lighting there for corals. Is there another way to manage this? How can I safely introduce corals (attached to rocks) or new rocks without maintaining a full up second reef environment. It seems that even a clam could have these nasty cysts on his shell.

Please let me know your thoughts on this. If you have other ideas, I would love to hear them. I know I am being somewhat paranoid, but after taking what I thought were adequate precautions I don't know what to do.

Thanks,
Don

tekjunkie28 · 10/10/2012, 07:19 AM

I hear this all the time... (tank went fallow and then I put fish in and they were fine the whammy ich...)

I hear so many different stories about how ich can be stopped/killed.
I hope someone can chime in with an article or proof about the ich life cycle.

And this maybe dumb? But are u sure it's not just sand? Have u lost any fish to ich?

MrTuskfish · 10/10/2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekjunkie28

I hear this all the time... (tank went fallow and then I put fish in and they were fine the whammy ich...)

I hear so many different stories about how ich can be stopped/killed.
I hope someone can chime in with an article or proof about the ich life cycle.

Read the ich stickies in the disease forum. The stickies written by Snorvich are all based on well-researched data.

dedvalson · 10/10/2012, 09:59 AM

Believe me, I have read everything on the Stickies, especially the stuff from Snorvich, which is what I based my previous procedures and my current plans on.

Don

danil · 10/10/2012, 12:43 PM

I tried hyposalinity twice and it never worked for me. Exactly the same situation you've been experiencing. I would treat with copper all fish in QT and keep new tank fishless for two months. Doesn't matter what's inside new tank (rocks, snails etc) ich can't survive without host for more then 7-8 weeks. I'm aware of possible lose(s) due to treatment but I would do it anyway.

loup · 10/10/2012, 12:48 PM

I use the tank transfer method. Burn thru lots of bag of IO salt but all my fish are ich free in my 300. Its time consuming on how I go about doing it. But its worth it seeing my fish healthy.

10/10/2012, 07:00 AM	#1
dedvalson Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Gainesville FL Posts: 80	New 240 setup / preventing Ich This is a somewhat long post, please bear with me. I am in the process of planning a move from my current 90 gallon reef to a 240 gallon reef. I have also been battling marine ich now for close to 2 years. I am hoping to use the opportunity of the move to the new tank to finally destroy this disease. First, a short background, when I first observed the ich, I pretty quickly did what I should have done in the first place, I set up a 30 gallon QT. At that time I had a wet/dry on my reef so I moved a lot of the wet/dry balls into a canister filter for the QT. I then moved all of my fish to the QT (which involved tearing the rocks all out to get them). In the QT, I treated them with hyposalinity (1.09) for 4 weeks while letting the reef tank run without fish but otherwise as normal. After the 4 weeks, I slowly raised the salinity up to normal in the QT. During the week I was raising the salinity and in the week after that I observed no signs of Ich whatsoever. I left the fish in the QT for another 4 weeks, for a total of 9 weeks with no sign of Ich. At that point I moved the fish back to the reef and figured that Ich was gone. I observed the fish for 3 months in the reef and never saw any sign of Ich, so I was pretty happy. Since I was planning the move to the 240, I recently bought a small Kole Tang. I figured he would be fine in the 90 since he was small till I moved him to the 240. So I put him in my QT with hyposaline water (again 1.09). I left him in there for 3 weeks and then raised the salinity to normal and observed him for another 2 weeks and saw no sign of Ich. So, after 5 weeks in QT, I moved him to the main tank. Within 3 days the top edge of his dorsal fin and the tips of his pectoral fins all show white spots that I am pretty sure are Ich. None of the other fish show any sign of Ich whatsoever, just the Tang. All of the fish are eating very well, including the Tang. I am assuming that the Ich never really went away. It was sitting in my display tank the whole time waiting for a Tang to attack. Anyway, it is there now. As far as immediate treatment goes, I think I am going to do nothing. I can't catch the tang without tearing the tank down and the other inhabitants have been doing fine (and are still doing fine) with the Ich in the tank. So I am going to keep the water parameters as perfect as I can and hope the Tang can fight off the Ich on his own, at least for now. Here are my water parameters BTW: Temperature 80.4 pH 8.1 (day) 8.0 (night) Ammonia 0 (Lamotte) Nitrite 0 (Lamotte) Nitrate 0 - 0.5 (sometimes it is there sometimes not (Lamotte) Alkalinity 10.1 DKH (Hannah) Calcium 412 (Hannah) Phosphate 0 (Hannah) Magnesium 1230 (Salifert) I am in the process of planning a new 240 gallon reef to replace my current 90 and I am trying to figure out how to use the transfer of stock to the new 240 as a way to finally eradicate this disease for good. I have concoted 2 plans, and I would like to solicit the opinions of some of you very experienced and knowlegable people. Here are my two thoughts: Plan A: Set up the new 240 gallon system using entirely dry materials (dry rock, dry sand, etc.) In essence, create a sterile system. I am thinking I need to use dead rock to make sure I am not bringing in Ich cysts on the rock. Fill the new system with hyposaline (1.09) water. Since the rock and sand are dead, there will be nothing to die off in the hyposaline environment. Cycle the new system using the hyposaline water and ammonia introduction. But I would need to get some seed bacteria from somewhere. I can't take it from my old tank, it might bring the Ich over. I can't get it from my LFS, all their tanks have Ich. I am not sure where to get the seed bacteria. Once the new tank is cycled, move all of the fish to it. Rely on the bacterial culture in the rock and sand and use water changes if needed for ammonia control or possibly Seachem Prime. After 4 weeks or so bring the Salinity up to full. After some long time (maybe 3 months total) move the sand, rock and coral over from the old system. Plan B: Set up the new system as described above (with all dead dry sand / rock) and don't cycle it. Move all of the rock, sand and coral from the old system to the new system immediately. Since this will remove all of my biological filtration, the old system where the fish were left behind is going to spike ammonia. So I guess I would need to control that with Prime and Water changes. Keep the fish in the old system and reduce the salinity to 1.09. After 4 weeks, take the salinity in the old system up to full. After a total of 12 weeks, move the fish to the new system. I am leaning towards plan A because it puts the fish in a bigger tank for their hyposalinity treatment making ammonia control easier. However, Plan A involves disturbing all the rocks in the first tank twice, once to get the fish out and again when I move them to the new tank. I would really love to hear other suggestions, I have tried everything I know of to avoid Ich and still have it. All of this leads me to a huge question that I have been unable to answer going forward though. Assuming this works and that I have a new 240 gallon Ich free tank, how do I keep it that way. As I see it, there are 2 situations to contend with: 1. I am going to want to introduce new fish at times. I plan to use my existing 90 as a QT, probably with a wet dry filter. So I put the fish in the QT. But no matter how long I leave them there, they might still have Ich in their gills, so I think I need to treat all new fish with hyposalinity for at least 2weeks to make sure they don't. Is there a better way? 2. I am going to want to add corals. It is likely that the rocks on the base of the coral could harbor Ich cysts. The only way I can think of to make sure they don't is to keep these corals in the QT with full salinity for 8-12 weeks. But I won't really have adequate lighting there for corals. Is there another way to manage this? How can I safely introduce corals (attached to rocks) or new rocks without maintaining a full up second reef environment. It seems that even a clam could have these nasty cysts on his shell. Please let me know your thoughts on this. If you have other ideas, I would love to hear them. I know I am being somewhat paranoid, but after taking what I thought were adequate precautions I don't know what to do. Thanks, Don

10/10/2012, 12:48 PM	#6
loup Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: elk grove, ca Posts: 981	I use the tank transfer method. Burn thru lots of bag of IO salt but all my fish are ich free in my 300. Its time consuming on how I go about doing it. But its worth it seeing my fish healthy. __________________ Lou Fat Fish = Happy Owner Current Tank Info: a nano with fishies ...

10/10/2012, 07:19 AM	#2
tekjunkie28 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 168	I hear this all the time... (tank went fallow and then I put fish in and they were fine the whammy ich...) I hear so many different stories about how ich can be stopped/killed. I hope someone can chime in with an article or proof about the ich life cycle. And this maybe dumb? But are u sure it's not just sand? Have u lost any fish to ich?

10/10/2012, 09:59 AM	#4
dedvalson Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Gainesville FL Posts: 80	Believe me, I have read everything on the Stickies, especially the stuff from Snorvich, which is what I based my previous procedures and my current plans on. Don

10/10/2012, 12:43 PM	#5
danil Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 935	I tried hyposalinity twice and it never worked for me. Exactly the same situation you've been experiencing. I would treat with copper all fish in QT and keep new tank fishless for two months. Doesn't matter what's inside new tank (rocks, snails etc) ich can't survive without host for more then 7-8 weeks. I'm aware of possible lose(s) due to treatment but I would do it anyway.