No sand, fish or live rock yet, but CLOUDY

[eastfernstreet]

I've been patiently setting up my brand new 90 gallon tank. Ran it for a week or more with fresh water. Clear, clean, etc. Sump, pump, everything fine. Then about three days after adding Instant Ocean (which dissolved into beautiful clear water for the first few days) I've got a somewhat greenish cloudiness to the water. Again, NO fish, rock, sand or anything was added.

I was running the lights (HO set up) on a timer both before and after the addition of the salt.

I'm guessing some sort of bloom but don't know what (if anything) to do. Go ahead and start adding live sand, etc. and hope that the bloom clears up and my crystal clear water comes back?

Any ideas for a TOTAL newbie would be appreciated.

[stingythingy45]

What is your salinity?
You are probably getting a water bourne algae bloom.

[Sk8r]

Wash your sand. Thoroughly. You're going through a lot of steps you don't need. Base rock first, then sand, then live rock sitting on the base rock, in salt water stirred for at least 4 hours: you CAN stir in your tank, but the live rock should not go in until the water is warm and well-mixed. There is no way you're going to grow the right bacteria without live rock and aragonite sand in saltwater.

Suggest a read in the stickies atop the forum on how to set up: that will give you the sequence.

[stingythingy45]

It would have been best for you to add the LR,sand and water all at once.
If it is a green water problem you may have a hard time to get rid of it.Water changes do not work.Neither will lights out.
When I had it in a QT tank once running it for Hyposalinity treatment(SG 1.008).The only way I beat it was running a UV sterizer on the tank for a week.

[ken55]

My guess is also that you have some sort of freshwater algae bloom occuring.

If you still haven't added the sand and rocks it may be easier to dump the current water, give everything a good wipe down and start over.

Agree 1000% with Sk8r. By doing the steps out of sequence you are making it much harder than it needs to be. Rocks, sand then premixed water.


Good Luck.

[ken55]

I thought I would throw this out there for you. I don't know if it's completely true but I've heard more than one person say it and it makes sense.

Once you get everything in place and start your cycle it is probably better if you DON"T run the lights. The idea is that you are trying to grow the bacteria from the live rocks not the algae. The bacteria and algae will compete with each other for the nutrients in the water. The algae needs the light to grow, as it is photosynthetic, but the bacteria is not. By leaving the lights off you tip the balance in favor of the bacteria. This is not to say that you won't get any algae. Of course you will but you should get much less and the bacteria will establish better.

If any of the old salts know this to be untrue please say so. I don't want to mislead the OP.

[eastfernstreet]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Wash your sand. Thoroughly. You're going through a lot of steps you don't need. Base rock first, then sand, then live rock sitting on the base rock, in salt water stirred for at least 4 hours: you CAN stir in your tank, but the live rock should not go in until the water is warm and well-mixed. There is no way you're going to grow the right bacteria without live rock and aragonite sand in saltwater.

Suggest a read in the stickies atop the forum on how to set up: that will give you the sequence.

Thanks for the response. Adding the water was one of the murkiest (no pun intended) parts of the process despite my ongoing readings. Without having some sort of 90 gallon, filtered, heated storage facility, I was at a loss how to add live rock to a tank that would only later - a bit at a time - get properly mixed water. I feared spending nearly $700 on live rock and live sand then placing it into a dry tank and watching it die as I slowly prepared sufficient water. Placing it into a large, dry glass enclosure while I added a few gallons of water at a time into an untested system (brand new tank, sump, etc.) seemed far riskier than having a tank of pre-mixed, heated, circulating water into which I could safely and confidently place both the live rock and the live sand.

Many posts have discussed adding live rock and live sand to water-filled tanks. None have suggested putting live rock into a dry tank and slowly adding water. Short of trying to mix, store, and pump 90 gallons of water at the exact same time as one adds the lives rock seems, frankly, impossible. How does one do this? Should I fill the tank and mix the night before I go to get the rock and the sand so there's no time for an algae bloom? It's VERY frustrating to be a newbie and I appreciate the time and expertise of those who help.

[eastfernstreet]

Originally Posted by ken55

My guess is also that you have some sort of freshwater algae bloom occuring.

If you still haven't added the sand and rocks it may be easier to dump the current water, give everything a good wipe down and start over.

Agree 1000% with Sk8r. By doing the steps out of sequence you are making it much harder than it needs to be. Rocks, sand then premixed water.


Good Luck.

Thanks for the response. I remain confused despite much reading. If live rock and live sand requires water, how can I add the live rock/sand first? I am a hobbyist and do not have two 55-gallon drums of prepared, filtered, warmed salt water that can be added all at once. I can mix enough for 10-gallon water changes, etc. but not enough to cover a tank full of live rock.

Are steps really sand, rock, water? If so, how much time do I have once sand and rock are placed to add a tank full of water? Will sand followed by water THEN rock the next week work?

Is it possible to "treat" the algae if a long enough interval between the treatment and the addition of live rock?

Thanks for your help and for your patience.

[stingythingy45]

Live rock when you buy it from a store or even fellow reefers is most always transported in wet newspaper anyways.So having it exposed while filling the tank for a little while would be no biggie.There's naturally some die off.But it's not going to kill all the nitrifying bacteria.
Also,have you considered mixing in a Brute trash can?
This is how I have done water changes since I started in the hobby.

[disc1]

This water wasn't made with tap water was it???

[ken55]

I think you may be confusing "base rock" (also called dry or dead rock) with the "live rock".

Base rock is large pieces of literally dry rock. It does not need water. It is, really, just a rock. Substantially cheaper than live rock this will make the bulk of your rockwork (aquascaping). Put this in your empty tank. Move it around, stack it, un-stack it, continue playing with it untill you have it placed in a way that is pleasing to you. No hurry at all. Take your time.

Once you are happy with the rock arrangement then add the dry sand. Don't waste your money on "LIVE SAND". The sand should be arragonite (not silica) but plain dry sand. Add untill you acheive desired depth. Shallow vs Deep Sand bed is a whole other subject. Still no hurry.

Now, once dry rock and sand are in the tank and looking good to you, you are ready for the real work. Add the premixed salt water. You will need to add it kind of slowly so you don't create a "sandstorm". If it happens anyway don't freak out. It will settle out in a day or two. A good tip is to pour it into a bowl or dish sitting on the sand so the force of the water doesn't stir it all up.

Ok, now you have rock, sand, water. It is now time to add the "live rock". Just stack it onto the base rock (thats why it's called 'base'. It is the 'base' of the pile of rocks). The live rock needs to stay wet. Don't let these pieces dry out. Arrange untill it looks good to you. Keep in mind that it may eventually fall or get knocked over. Try to stack it in such a way that minimizes this risk or use REEF EPOXY and glue those things tight. Sit back, pop a beer and stare at you handiwork for the next 6 weeks.

The live rock (well the bacteria on it) will eventually make all the other base rocks and sand "live". BTW- live just means it has the bacteria growing in/on it. This is a part of what is happening during the cycle.

Another tip: Don't buy the live rock in advance, whether that means a trip to LFS or local reefer or online whatever. Once you have it you need to go ahead and get it it the water. Don't buy it and let it sit untill the following weekend unless you have the equipment to properly store it. Properly storing would need vats, even more saltwater, circulation, heaters etc. Have the tank ready to go when you obtain the live rock.

Another tip: I think you said you had a 90g tank? That means you want to have about 90lbs of rock. Save yourself some serious money. Only 20 to 25 lbs of this needs to be the good live rock. All the rest can be the base rock I talked about, which is substantially cheaper.

Whew. That was the LONGEST post I have made in quite a while. I hope you find it helpful.

Ken

[eastfernstreet]

Originally Posted by ken55

I think you may be confusing "base rock" (also called dry or dead rock) with the "live rock".

Base rock is large pieces of literally dry rock. It does not need water. It is, really, just a rock. Substantially cheaper than live rock this will make the bulk of your rockwork (aquascaping). Put this in your empty tank. Move it around, stack it, un-stack it, continue playing with it untill you have it placed in a way that is pleasing to you. No hurry at all. Take your time.

Once you are happy with the rock arrangement then add the dry sand. Don't waste your money on "LIVE SAND". The sand should be arragonite (not silica) but plain dry sand. Add untill you acheive desired depth. Shallow vs Deep Sand bed is a whole other subject. Still no hurry.

Now, once dry rock and sand are in the tank and looking good to you, you are ready for the real work. Add the premixed salt water. You will need to add it kind of slowly so you don't create a "sandstorm". If it happens anyway don't freak out. It will settle out in a day or two. A good tip is to pour it into a bowl or dish sitting on the sand so the force of the water doesn't stir it all up.

Ok, now you have rock, sand, water. It is now time to add the "live rock". Just stack it onto the base rock (thats why it's called 'base'. It is the 'base' of the pile of rocks). The live rock needs to stay wet. Don't let these pieces dry out. Arrange untill it looks good to you. Keep in mind that it may eventually fall or get knocked over. Try to stack it in such a way that minimizes this risk or use REEF EPOXY and glue those things tight. Sit back, pop a beer and stare at you handiwork for the next 6 weeks.

The live rock (well the bacteria on it) will eventually make all the other base rocks and sand "live". BTW- live just means it has the bacteria growing in/on it. This is a part of what is happening during the cycle.

Another tip: Don't buy the live rock in advance, whether that means a trip to LFS or local reefer or online whatever. Once you have it you need to go ahead and get it it the water. Don't buy it and let it sit untill the following weekend unless you have the equipment to properly store it. Properly storing would need vats, even more saltwater, circulation, heaters etc. Have the tank ready to go when you obtain the live rock.

Another tip: I think you said you had a 90g tank? That means you want to have about 90lbs of rock. Save yourself some serious money. Only 20 to 25 lbs of this needs to be the good live rock. All the rest can be the base rock I talked about, which is substantially cheaper.

Whew. That was the LONGEST post I have made in quite a while. I hope you find it helpful.

Ken

THANK YOU!!!!

You are the first person who has said that only a percentage of the rock must be live. You are also one of the few who has said that live sand is not required.

If I do what you say, it all MAKES SENSE. I was being told (and reading everywhere) that I needed 90 lbs of live rock (which would need water immediately) and live sand that also needs sand. That's why I tried to get the water ready first.

That's the reason I'm in this mess. (That and the fact that I'm a newbie, of course.)

Very appreciative of your long post!

Andrew

[eastfernstreet]

Originally Posted by disc1

This water wasn't made with tap water was it???

Filtered, rested and treated for chloramine with product from LFS. Ran for a week fresh (just as I would have in a mixing container) and then mixed to 1.024 in the tank. Was fine (crystal clear and quite nice to look at) for a few days - not the slightest cloudiness - then went cloudy overnight.

I realize that in a perfect world I'd have a reverse osmosis system, but that is simply not practical at the 90 gallon initial setup volume. (Water changes will likely be bottled or of some other such improved quality.)

Is my use of tap water likely related to my cloudiness? (Go ahead, I can take it.)

- Pathetic newbie (a.k.a Andrew)

[eastfernstreet]

Originally Posted by stingythingy45

Live rock when you buy it from a store or even fellow reefers is most always transported in wet newspaper anyways.So having it exposed while filling the tank for a little while would be no biggie.There's naturally some die off.But it's not going to kill all the nitrifying bacteria.
Also,have you considered mixing in a Brute trash can?
This is how I have done water changes since I started in the hobby.

Will be off to Home Depot this weekend!

Thank you.

[ken55]

Originally Posted by eastfernstreet

THANK YOU!!!!

You are the first person who has said that only a percentage of the rock must be live. You are also one of the few who has said that live sand is not required.

If I do what you say, it all MAKES SENSE. I was being told (and reading everywhere) that I needed 90 lbs of live rock (which would need water immediately) and live sand that also needs sand. That's why I tried to get the water ready first.

That's the reason I'm in this mess. (That and the fact that I'm a newbie, of course.)

Very appreciative of your long post!

Andrew

Your Welcome.

Yeah, the rule of thumb is a pound of live rock per gallon of display tank size (90g = 90lbs). In no way does it ALL have to start as live rock. That stuff can be expensive! It would put me in the poorhouse just trying to buy rocks at that rate. Truth be told, you can start with all dead rock but that version takes months not just 6 or so weeks. Actually 20% live is a good ratio but it will be hard to get exactly 18lbs as the rocks are different shapes and sizes. That's why I said 20 to 25 lbs as it's better to go a little over than under but it will all be live in 6 months from now.

I'll give you another hint for asthetics. The base rock needs to be pleasing to look at and good shapes/sizes for the fish you plan to have. It will be in your tank untill the day you tear it all down. If you have a hard time finding live rock that fits in with the landscape just buy what you can find. After all the rock has become live you can pull the ugly pieces out. Just do it one piece at a time over several weeks.

And don't waste your money on the bags of "live sand". Good reef grade arragonite (again not silica) sand is about $25-30 for forty pounds. It will become live just like the rocks. If possible try to get a cupful of sand from an established tank. It is not nessecary but will help speed up the process.

Congratulations, you will soon be a bacteria farmer!

[ken55]

Oh yeah, please don't confuse my saying "just a rock". It does have to be approved for use in a saltwater aquarium. Don't take a wheelbarrow out in the woods and start picking up random rocks. Those are worthless and potentially harmful.

Look around at the site sponsors section. They sell the stuff you will need. Or the LFS.

[Breadman03]

"Live" just means that the rock/sand is in saltwater and has had time for the bacteria that help decompose waste into harmless substances to become established.

Dry rock/sand will become colonized, regardless of whether or not you use any "live" items as they exist in the atmosphere. Using live just speeds up the process.

[disc1]

Originally Posted by eastfernstreet

Filtered, rested and treated for chloramine with product from LFS. Ran for a week fresh (just as I would have in a mixing container) and then mixed to 1.024 in the tank. Was fine (crystal clear and quite nice to look at) for a few days - not the slightest cloudiness - then went cloudy overnight.

I realize that in a perfect world I'd have a reverse osmosis system, but that is simply not practical at the 90 gallon initial setup volume. (Water changes will likely be bottled or of some other such improved quality.)

Is my use of tap water likely related to my cloudiness? (Go ahead, I can take it.)

- Pathetic newbie (a.k.a Andrew)

Tap water often has a ton of algal spores in it. That may be why the tank went green on you, since there was nothing to compete with the algae.

RODI is completely practical for the 90 gallon initial fill. It just takes patience.

[Timber77]

get an ro/di no brainer....in the big picture very small expense compared to stocking a 90 gallon reef