HLLE? Confirm and Recommend

jeremyjoslin · 01/01/2013, 08:30 PM

As I'm preparing to water test my new 300g DT a local ad caught my eye: free "sick" fish to a good home. I made contact and showed up to see which fish he was willing to give away. My basement is a full fish room with sump and several different refugia. I have a few different tanks available as hospital or QT tanks.

To my surprise, this gentleman had several very nice tangs in the tank with what struck me as possible HLLE. He had told me over the phone he thought it was "fin rot" (which I was hoping I could treat with antibiotics in a jiffy). Some clues I left with after helping him retrieve these fish from his tank for me to take home:

1.) It looked like he had a possible nitrate problem:
- his sand was about 3-4 inches high
- he used a canister filter
- there was a deep carpet of purple cyano bloom

2.) He gave me the food he was feeding the fish: frozen Krill and Brine shrimp (Hikari brand). Although he seemed to be quite fastidious about straining and rinsing these frozen foods before placing in tank, but there was no mention during our conversation of him feeding vegetables (which I didn't realize until I read every article on HLLE and diet contribution).

3.) Only the Surgeonfish were affected. His clowns, chromis, mandarin, and goby were NOT affected.

After reading several online articles, I think that the fish are suffering from HLLE and NOT fin rot (I'm not even sure of the offending organism or the definition of fin rot after all of this reading). I'm both relieved and saddened by this diagnosis...

1.) With a proper diet rich in greens and some other supplements, they should improve
2.) They may never look "normal" again

My plan is to feed nori, spirulina, and offer live Chaeto (will be growing in tank anyway). I will try to keep salinity in the lower range (I can't be very accurate so I won't go too low in to danger territory).

Once a few weeks have passed, I will consider adding them to my DT if I feel better about their diseased state being caused by diet and water quality instead of an infectious organism. If anything, my DT will offer a better environment of larger space, better kept water parameters, and closer attention.

I would greatly appreciate comments on my diagnosis and management as these are the first ill fishes I'm taking on.

jeremyjoslin · 01/01/2013, 08:33 PM

What amazes me about this disease, is that these fish have been "sick" for 6 months (per previous owner) but still eat and swim about as if healthy. If this were an infectious process, I'd expect them to act as sick as they look, and for them to have died by now...

DEEP BLUE SIX · 01/01/2013, 08:52 PM

Yes. It's Hille.

All you can do is improve their diet. Algae matter definitely.
Maybe some vitamin c or vitamin supplements "might" help too.
But definitely the algae. Feed Pellets if possible, definitely Nori / algae strips and any "green" (algae based) frozens too.

Wow, is all I can say

Too bad they went so long like that. Hard to believe he didn't know better- to make sure they had the algae matter in their diet.

Sometimes some of the poc marking on the face / head areas as well as lateral line will fill in again- with given time and good diet. The top Fins part is really unfortunate. I've seen even in a couple local area LFS, a couple tangs that have it. Usually the fins area has the hardest time ever growing back right. Some areas may heal up and fill back in. But not all of it will go away. It can in extreme, shorten life. But many fish that do develop it from poor diet- do go on to live for a long time. Some even for years.

Inside they don't feel sick at all. It doesn't effect them that way. But it can detract from their health obviously. Swimming strength can also be challenged from the norm. I think you can keep them alive most likely and they may be at least useful fish brought back to health.
You can get the HILLE to cease entirely. But at least a certain amount of the old scarring "may" always be present.

Foody · 01/01/2013, 09:30 PM

It never would have occurred to me to handle these fish like that. Educate me as to how/why this is okay? Besides the obvious stress on the fish, I've heard/read of folks receiving nasty wounds from the surgeonfishes' daggers. The Hippo (at least) carries a venom gland and can deliver a nasty wound.

jeremyjoslin · 01/01/2013, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foody

It never would have occurred to me to handle these fish like that. Educate me as to how/why this is okay? Besides the obvious stress on the fish, I've heard/read of folks receiving nasty wounds from the surgeonfishes' daggers. The Hippo (at least) carries a venom gland and can deliver a nasty wound.

I thought the same thing the first time I saw it. It was explained as a "better way" and seemed believable. What is definitely high stress is swinging a net around and trying to move a fish from A to B inside of a net while wiggling about. Catching it with my hand from the bucket and hand delivering it to the tank was the smoothest, least stress move I've ever made. The fish seemed WAY more relaxed and I didn't risk breaking a spine in the net.

As a fisherman, holding a fish is familiar to me and I wasn't worried about spines.

Gary Majchrzak · 01/02/2013, 12:00 PM

make sure to read link in post 9 of this thread

jeremyjoslin · 01/02/2013, 12:25 PM

Thanks, Gary, and all for the confirmation.

Anyone spot any other signs of other disease? If this is only HLLE I'll be looking to graduate them as soon as possible to the large DT which would be the least stressful place for them.

Spartan · 01/02/2013, 12:56 PM

It's just my opinion, but I think one day we'll learn that HLLE is viral, some variant of herpes.
I'd agree that good diet, water quality diet, etc will remit the disease ie- let the fish's immune resistance improve to negate it. If you buy into that line of thinking, one can't know if they become carriers after the disease abates. I'd be sure to keep them isolated - and wouldn't put them in that tank your building!
Those poor guys look pretty sorry and while you can nurse them back, some of that scarring will be permanent. Kudos for taking them in. good luck!

jeremyjoslin · 01/02/2013, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan

It's just my opinion, but I think one day we'll learn that HLLE is viral, some variant of herpes.
I'd agree that good diet, water quality diet, etc will remit the disease ie- let the fish's immune resistance improve to negate it. If you buy into that line of thinking, one can't know if they become carriers after the disease abates. I'd be sure to keep them isolated - and wouldn't put them in that tank your building!
Those poor guys look pretty sorry and while you can nurse them back, some of that scarring will be permanent. Kudos for taking them in. good luck!

Interesting thought that I've been chewing on all day. If this were caused by a viral pathogen one would expect to see the disease in the wild (which has never been reported). That means the virus would have to be so mild that its only when the fish are stressed in A suboptimal environment that the disease shows. Or, that the virus is so deadly that its only by the super-optimal environment of a fish tank that they stay alive... Which is dismissable prima facie.

I think the balance of evidence is towards nutrient/vitamin deficiency, ala scurvy, ricketts, beriberi, etc which would push me towards an early graduation from QT.

Spartan · 01/02/2013, 09:55 PM

It's just my opinion but the processing very similar to herpes viruses. Remember we don't really see ich much in the wild - but it's there. Either way, I have no proof. The nutrient defiency thing and stray currents etc. don't really have any evidence based data. Just like how people think brain cancer comes from cell phones.
It looks like you're on you're way to a very nice tank. Those fish might be a gamble. Best of luck with your endeavors.

jeremyjoslin · 01/02/2013, 10:52 PM

I'm genuinely curious about your hypothesis. Any reason besides similar appearance to aphthous ulcerations?

Flanders · 01/03/2013, 05:58 AM

based on everything we know about HLLE that does not seem like a logical conclusion to draw.

Haffs09 · 01/03/2013, 11:37 AM

I have two purple tangs in a similar condition. They developed HLLE while in QT and undergoing a 0.40ppm cupramine treatment. That was last May and they deteriorated like the one in your picture. I didn't think they'd survive, but they are still eating well (nori and ON flake foods) in QT and I need to start experimenting with other foods to see if that helps.

I also had a desjardini tang develop HLLE while in cupramine. The fish is ~5" long and the areas where the HLLE developed are slowly healing.

From now on, I'll never use a copper treatment on zebrasoma tangs. They don't seem to tolerate it well at all.

Randrew215 · 01/03/2013, 03:18 PM

I added an HLLE yellow tang to my display tank about two years ago. When he went in he had ragged fins, was emaciated, and had whitening about the face and gills. It was similar to the purple tang you are holding in the picture but much skinnier. He has recovered somewhat in that he is no longer emaciated, but he is still lacking color about the face and his dorsal fin grew in kind of short and raggedy. All of my other fish look extremely healthy, the yellow tang still looks a little rough. To be honest, I would have pegged him as a goner long ago. My brown powder tang is the only other tang in the tank and has shown no signs of affliction.

01/01/2013, 08:30 PM	#1
jeremyjoslin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Manlius (Syracuse) Posts: 898	HLLE? Confirm and Recommend As I'm preparing to water test my new 300g DT a local ad caught my eye: free "sick" fish to a good home. I made contact and showed up to see which fish he was willing to give away. My basement is a full fish room with sump and several different refugia. I have a few different tanks available as hospital or QT tanks. To my surprise, this gentleman had several very nice tangs in the tank with what struck me as possible HLLE. He had told me over the phone he thought it was "fin rot" (which I was hoping I could treat with antibiotics in a jiffy). Some clues I left with after helping him retrieve these fish from his tank for me to take home: 1.) It looked like he had a possible nitrate problem: - his sand was about 3-4 inches high - he used a canister filter - there was a deep carpet of purple cyano bloom 2.) He gave me the food he was feeding the fish: frozen Krill and Brine shrimp (Hikari brand). Although he seemed to be quite fastidious about straining and rinsing these frozen foods before placing in tank, but there was no mention during our conversation of him feeding vegetables (which I didn't realize until I read every article on HLLE and diet contribution). 3.) Only the Surgeonfish were affected. His clowns, chromis, mandarin, and goby were NOT affected. After reading several online articles, I think that the fish are suffering from HLLE and NOT fin rot (I'm not even sure of the offending organism or the definition of fin rot after all of this reading). I'm both relieved and saddened by this diagnosis... 1.) With a proper diet rich in greens and some other supplements, they should improve 2.) They may never look "normal" again My plan is to feed nori, spirulina, and offer live Chaeto (will be growing in tank anyway). I will try to keep salinity in the lower range (I can't be very accurate so I won't go too low in to danger territory). Once a few weeks have passed, I will consider adding them to my DT if I feel better about their diseased state being caused by diet and water quality instead of an infectious organism. If anything, my DT will offer a better environment of larger space, better kept water parameters, and closer attention. I would greatly appreciate comments on my diagnosis and management as these are the first ill fishes I'm taking on.

01/01/2013, 08:52 PM	#3
DEEP BLUE SIX Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Between Rochester & Buffalo Posts: 530	Yes. It's Hille. All you can do is improve their diet. Algae matter definitely. Maybe some vitamin c or vitamin supplements "might" help too. But definitely the algae. Feed Pellets if possible, definitely Nori / algae strips and any "green" (algae based) frozens too. Wow, is all I can say Too bad they went so long like that. Hard to believe he didn't know better- to make sure they had the algae matter in their diet. Sometimes some of the poc marking on the face / head areas as well as lateral line will fill in again- with given time and good diet. The top Fins part is really unfortunate. I've seen even in a couple local area LFS, a couple tangs that have it. Usually the fins area has the hardest time ever growing back right. Some areas may heal up and fill back in. But not all of it will go away. It can in extreme, shorten life. But many fish that do develop it from poor diet- do go on to live for a long time. Some even for years. Inside they don't feel sick at all. It doesn't effect them that way. But it can detract from their health obviously. Swimming strength can also be challenged from the norm. I think you can keep them alive most likely and they may be at least useful fish brought back to health. You can get the HILLE to cease entirely. But at least a certain amount of the old scarring "may" always be present. __________________ The sea is everything. It covers seven tenths of the terrestrial globe. Its breath is pure and healthy. It is an immense desert, where man is never lonely, for he feels life stirring on all sides. - Jules Verne You don't keep fish, you keep Water - David Saxby OCR- many of us have it. (Obsessive Compulsive Reef Disorder) Current Tank Info: Back in: Currently a 1 year new Custom center end RR 90 gallon Penninsula Reef w/ 2x250watt Halides 14K, Actinic T5's, Skimmer, GFO reactor, UV, 40 gal Sump, Mag return, ATO w/saturated Kalk RO, 2 part suppl. dosing pumps(2), LPS/SPS mix &FISH Last edited by DEEP BLUE SIX; 01/01/2013 at 08:59 PM.

01/02/2013, 12:00 PM	#6
Gary Majchrzak Team RC Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 41,560	make sure to read link in post 9 of this thread __________________ over 24 years experience with multiple types of marine aquarium systems see Upstate Reef Society Forum on RC and FB GOOGLE JUNIOR'S REEF Current Tank Info: 84x24x30 265g reef past TOTM honors

01/02/2013, 12:56 PM	#8
Spartan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Western New York Posts: 705	It's just my opinion, but I think one day we'll learn that HLLE is viral, some variant of herpes. I'd agree that good diet, water quality diet, etc will remit the disease ie- let the fish's immune resistance improve to negate it. If you buy into that line of thinking, one can't know if they become carriers after the disease abates. I'd be sure to keep them isolated - and wouldn't put them in that tank your building! Those poor guys look pretty sorry and while you can nurse them back, some of that scarring will be permanent. Kudos for taking them in. good luck! __________________ Reef since 95'. 180g, 100g sump, 55 g refuge Current Tank Info: 180g, 100g sump, 55 g refuge

01/02/2013, 09:55 PM	#10
Spartan Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Western New York Posts: 705	It's just my opinion but the processing very similar to herpes viruses. Remember we don't really see ich much in the wild - but it's there. Either way, I have no proof. The nutrient defiency thing and stray currents etc. don't really have any evidence based data. Just like how people think brain cancer comes from cell phones. It looks like you're on you're way to a very nice tank. Those fish might be a gamble. Best of luck with your endeavors. __________________ Reef since 95'. 180g, 100g sump, 55 g refuge Current Tank Info: 180g, 100g sump, 55 g refuge

01/01/2013, 08:33 PM	#2
jeremyjoslin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Manlius (Syracuse) Posts: 898	What amazes me about this disease, is that these fish have been "sick" for 6 months (per previous owner) but still eat and swim about as if healthy. If this were an infectious process, I'd expect them to act as sick as they look, and for them to have died by now...

01/01/2013, 09:30 PM	#4
Foody Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Bergen, NY Posts: 487	It never would have occurred to me to handle these fish like that. Educate me as to how/why this is okay? Besides the obvious stress on the fish, I've heard/read of folks receiving nasty wounds from the surgeonfishes' daggers. The Hippo (at least) carries a venom gland and can deliver a nasty wound.

01/02/2013, 12:25 PM	#7
jeremyjoslin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Manlius (Syracuse) Posts: 898	Thanks, Gary, and all for the confirmation. Anyone spot any other signs of other disease? If this is only HLLE I'll be looking to graduate them as soon as possible to the large DT which would be the least stressful place for them.

01/02/2013, 10:52 PM	#11
jeremyjoslin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Manlius (Syracuse) Posts: 898	I'm genuinely curious about your hypothesis. Any reason besides similar appearance to aphthous ulcerations?

01/03/2013, 05:58 AM	#12
Flanders Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 3,592	based on everything we know about HLLE that does not seem like a logical conclusion to draw. __________________ Insert witty phrase, followed by explosive laughter Current Tank Info: 75 gallon reef, two 175-watt MH, two vho actinic

01/03/2013, 11:37 AM	#13
Haffs09 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 924	I have two purple tangs in a similar condition. They developed HLLE while in QT and undergoing a 0.40ppm cupramine treatment. That was last May and they deteriorated like the one in your picture. I didn't think they'd survive, but they are still eating well (nori and ON flake foods) in QT and I need to start experimenting with other foods to see if that helps. I also had a desjardini tang develop HLLE while in cupramine. The fish is ~5" long and the areas where the HLLE developed are slowly healing. From now on, I'll never use a copper treatment on zebrasoma tangs. They don't seem to tolerate it well at all. __________________ Current tank info: 94"x30"x30" Miracles in the works!

01/03/2013, 03:18 PM	#14
Randrew215 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Elmwood Village, Buffalo New York Posts: 323	I added an HLLE yellow tang to my display tank about two years ago. When he went in he had ragged fins, was emaciated, and had whitening about the face and gills. It was similar to the purple tang you are holding in the picture but much skinnier. He has recovered somewhat in that he is no longer emaciated, but he is still lacking color about the face and his dorsal fin grew in kind of short and raggedy. All of my other fish look extremely healthy, the yellow tang still looks a little rough. To be honest, I would have pegged him as a goner long ago. My brown powder tang is the only other tang in the tank and has shown no signs of affliction.