Please help me. Disease analysis...

Constantine · 01/09/2013, 08:46 AM

I posted this in the main area, which got views and no opinions. I can understand it's not likely to identify the disease issue, but can someone at least give me some guidance about not spreading whatever it was???

I bought a Lawnmower Blennie on Saturday (5th). Yesterday evening (7th) the entire middle third of it’s body lost it’s color and turned white, and it was breathing heavily. It was dead this morning (8th), and the middle third was now a dark blue/black color. I asked the lfs what type of disease that is and wanted to inform them of their stock quality. They didn’t know what it would be. I have some live rock in the quarantine tank along with the Frogspawn I purchased… what do I need to do to make sure I don’t spread the illness? Will I ever be able to put the LR back in the display? How long should I wait to move the Frogspawn so it doesn’t carry some of the disease on it into the display?

I drip acclimated. Used water from the display. Used live rock and sand from display. It seemed to acclimate fine. Had lots of hair algae for it to eat. Water parameters are good with nitrate around 5.

Thanks for the help.

(this was a thread in disease category titled "Post Mortem Advice Please" and there is a picture there too)

downbeach · 01/09/2013, 09:03 AM

See if anything looks familiar here:

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/disease.html

Constantine · 01/09/2013, 09:18 AM

Didn't see anything like it. Great link though, so thanks. Did you look at the pic in my post on the disease forum? I'm at a different pc, so I can't upload it again right now.

sponger0 · 01/09/2013, 09:43 AM

The hint of breathing heavy leads me to ammonia. Have you even done a water test? How old is the tank?

downbeach · 01/09/2013, 09:48 AM

I couldn't tell anything from the picture. But, when it comes to your QT, I wouldn't use either LR or any substrate, keep it BB, and use some PVC fittings for your fish to hide in.
As far as your LR, if you haven't medicated the QT, it is probably OK. Get some Coral Rx and dip the frogspawn.
Here's a good read:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...sh-made-simple

MrTuskfish · 01/09/2013, 12:30 PM

Just a wild stab in the dark; I've seen fish that looked like they were pinched in the mid-section. That resulted in internal bleeding. Fish are handled a lot between the reef and your tank and this sort of thing isn't uncommon.

Sk8r · 01/09/2013, 01:13 PM

Many fish turn colors when stressed. It's not necessarily a symptom of the disease, but of the fish's discomfort. Again, ammonia is lethal fairly quickly in very small amounts. So are several kinds of transport accidents. Be sure your bag didn't get pinched.

wooden_reefer · 01/09/2013, 01:52 PM

Yes, ammonia is very dangerous to fish and can have long term impact not discernable now.

That is why one should never have no biological filtration in QT whenever nitrification is possible, and it is often possible. Ammonia should ALWAYS be zero if an aquarist can achieve this; usually easy if one plans ahead.

Do not use LR in QT.
LR is not the best for nitrification alone, which is the objective in QT.

A tank is a closed system so diseases can spread. This may have NOTHING to do with nutrition or water chemical quality; the factor is CONFINEMNET in a closed system, period.

UV when applied well can vastly reduce the waterborne concentration of bacteria and viruses. It does not reduce what is not waterborne and has many limitations. But if you do not even have a correctly set up UV to reduce waterborne concentration of bacteria and viruses, you are seriously handicapped, your odds of allowing bacterial infection and viral infection is much greater and when they happen can become more virulent and spreads within the tank to affect many or all fish..

This could be bacterial.

Constantine · 01/10/2013, 07:53 AM

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Yeah, the water tests are good with nitrate around 5. I used water from my main display. I used a little LR chunks that I didn't care about, because I wanted to establish a biological filter. I put in a scoop of sand because it had algae on it, which is one of the reasons I got the blenny. So, in the future I won't use live rock.

So, it could be anything from stress, physical damage, internal parasites, or bacterial. Well, when in doubt... wait longer. I guess I'll hold my frogspawn in the qt for longer than necessary, and the LR too.

I have UV in the display, but not the qt. It wouldn't have helped a brand new fish with a bacterial infection anyway.

Thanks all! I'll check out that site db, thanks.

Constantine · 01/10/2013, 08:01 AM

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Yeah, the water tests are good with nitrate around 5. I used water from my main display. I used a little LR chunks that I didn't care about, because I wanted to establish a biological filter. I put in a scoop of sand because it had algae on it, which is one of the reasons I got the blenny. So, in the future I won't use live rock.

So, it could be anything from stress, physical damage, internal parasites, or bacterial. Well, when in doubt... wait longer. I guess I'll hold my frogspawn in the qt for longer than necessary, and the LR too.

I have UV in the display, but not the qt. It wouldn't have helped a brand new fish with a bacterial infection anyway.

Thanks all! I'll check out that site db, thanks.

thebkramer · 01/10/2013, 08:32 AM

besides ammonia.. my other thought is oxygen?? how is the water flow in QT??

Constantine · 01/11/2013, 08:11 AM

No ammonia. It is good water flow. It has a HOB filter. I keep the water level and inch or so below the return. It brings in a lot of o2 and actually provides pretty strong movement for a little 10 gal tank.

What does anyone think about temperature shock? I put it in an insulated cooler to bring it home, but it was a cold day.

The reason I didn't think it was stress is because only it's middle 3rd turned completely faded, then when it was dead the same section was dark blue/black. I would think the whole fish would show stress discoloration.

What's done is done. Guess I'll never know. I'm going to stop stressing about it before I lose my coloration. lol

01/09/2013, 08:46 AM	#1
Constantine Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 128	Please help me. Disease analysis... I posted this in the main area, which got views and no opinions. I can understand it's not likely to identify the disease issue, but can someone at least give me some guidance about not spreading whatever it was??? I bought a Lawnmower Blennie on Saturday (5th). Yesterday evening (7th) the entire middle third of it’s body lost it’s color and turned white, and it was breathing heavily. It was dead this morning (8th), and the middle third was now a dark blue/black color. I asked the lfs what type of disease that is and wanted to inform them of their stock quality. They didn’t know what it would be. I have some live rock in the quarantine tank along with the Frogspawn I purchased… what do I need to do to make sure I don’t spread the illness? Will I ever be able to put the LR back in the display? How long should I wait to move the Frogspawn so it doesn’t carry some of the disease on it into the display? I drip acclimated. Used water from the display. Used live rock and sand from display. It seemed to acclimate fine. Had lots of hair algae for it to eat. Water parameters are good with nitrate around 5. Thanks for the help. (this was a thread in disease category titled "Post Mortem Advice Please" and there is a picture there too)

01/09/2013, 12:30 PM	#6
MrTuskfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Wild Blue Yonder Posts: 8,887	Just a wild stab in the dark; I've seen fish that looked like they were pinched in the mid-section. That resulted in internal bleeding. Fish are handled a lot between the reef and your tank and this sort of thing isn't uncommon. __________________ If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef

01/09/2013, 01:13 PM	#7
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Many fish turn colors when stressed. It's not necessarily a symptom of the disease, but of the fish's discomfort. Again, ammonia is lethal fairly quickly in very small amounts. So are several kinds of transport accidents. Be sure your bag didn't get pinched. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

01/10/2013, 08:32 AM	#11
thebkramer Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Clifton Park, NY Posts: 3,198	besides ammonia.. my other thought is oxygen?? how is the water flow in QT?? __________________ Rhonda There is NO such things as Dumb Questions!! There are However.. Dumb Answers!!! ;) ____________ Current Tank Info: 55g reef....Current Orbit SunPaq Lights, HOB Eshopps, HOB AquaClear 110, 2-1400 Koralia Powerheads & 1 Nano Koralia, 40+ lbs LR, 2" LS

01/09/2013, 09:03 AM	#2
downbeach Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Smyrna, Delaware Posts: 3,767	See if anything looks familiar here: http://www.chucksaddiction.com/disease.html

01/09/2013, 09:18 AM	#3
Constantine Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 128	Didn't see anything like it. Great link though, so thanks. Did you look at the pic in my post on the disease forum? I'm at a different pc, so I can't upload it again right now.

01/09/2013, 09:43 AM	#4
sponger0 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 6,659	The hint of breathing heavy leads me to ammonia. Have you even done a water test? How old is the tank?

01/09/2013, 09:48 AM	#5
downbeach Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Smyrna, Delaware Posts: 3,767	I couldn't tell anything from the picture. But, when it comes to your QT, I wouldn't use either LR or any substrate, keep it BB, and use some PVC fittings for your fish to hide in. As far as your LR, if you haven't medicated the QT, it is probably OK. Get some Coral Rx and dip the frogspawn. Here's a good read: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog...sh-made-simple

01/09/2013, 01:52 PM	#8
wooden_reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,670	Yes, ammonia is very dangerous to fish and can have long term impact not discernable now. That is why one should never have no biological filtration in QT whenever nitrification is possible, and it is often possible. Ammonia should ALWAYS be zero if an aquarist can achieve this; usually easy if one plans ahead. Do not use LR in QT. LR is not the best for nitrification alone, which is the objective in QT. A tank is a closed system so diseases can spread. This may have NOTHING to do with nutrition or water chemical quality; the factor is CONFINEMNET in a closed system, period. UV when applied well can vastly reduce the waterborne concentration of bacteria and viruses. It does not reduce what is not waterborne and has many limitations. But if you do not even have a correctly set up UV to reduce waterborne concentration of bacteria and viruses, you are seriously handicapped, your odds of allowing bacterial infection and viral infection is much greater and when they happen can become more virulent and spreads within the tank to affect many or all fish.. This could be bacterial.

01/10/2013, 07:53 AM	#9
Constantine Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 128	Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Yeah, the water tests are good with nitrate around 5. I used water from my main display. I used a little LR chunks that I didn't care about, because I wanted to establish a biological filter. I put in a scoop of sand because it had algae on it, which is one of the reasons I got the blenny. So, in the future I won't use live rock. So, it could be anything from stress, physical damage, internal parasites, or bacterial. Well, when in doubt... wait longer. I guess I'll hold my frogspawn in the qt for longer than necessary, and the LR too. I have UV in the display, but not the qt. It wouldn't have helped a brand new fish with a bacterial infection anyway. Thanks all! I'll check out that site db, thanks.

01/10/2013, 08:01 AM	#10
Constantine Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 128	Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. Yeah, the water tests are good with nitrate around 5. I used water from my main display. I used a little LR chunks that I didn't care about, because I wanted to establish a biological filter. I put in a scoop of sand because it had algae on it, which is one of the reasons I got the blenny. So, in the future I won't use live rock. So, it could be anything from stress, physical damage, internal parasites, or bacterial. Well, when in doubt... wait longer. I guess I'll hold my frogspawn in the qt for longer than necessary, and the LR too. I have UV in the display, but not the qt. It wouldn't have helped a brand new fish with a bacterial infection anyway. Thanks all! I'll check out that site db, thanks.

01/11/2013, 08:11 AM	#12
Constantine Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 128	No ammonia. It is good water flow. It has a HOB filter. I keep the water level and inch or so below the return. It brings in a lot of o2 and actually provides pretty strong movement for a little 10 gal tank. What does anyone think about temperature shock? I put it in an insulated cooler to bring it home, but it was a cold day. The reason I didn't think it was stress is because only it's middle 3rd turned completely faded, then when it was dead the same section was dark blue/black. I would think the whole fish would show stress discoloration. What's done is done. Guess I'll never know. I'm going to stop stressing about it before I lose my coloration. lol