Problem planning my sump and plumbing layout... Should I get a diferent skimmer?

troubadour11 · 01/27/2013, 02:35 PM

So I need some ideas, I think I foresee a problem. I've gathered a good amount of equipment and am ready to start planning out the plumbing and dry fitting everything together.

In order to get my sump into the stand I have, I needed to remove the DT base and temporarily remove a 2x4 brace inside the stand. In the top down picture, you'll see I set the drain (1.5" on left) and return (.75" on right) bulkheads approximately where they will be a few inches inside the stand. I think this might be the best orientation for the sump so the drain/return ends are on the same sides. Let me know if this idea is flawed.

In the sump then from the front or top view, you'll see the drain / skimmer section on the left, the middle refugium section, bubble trap (which currently has bio balls in it, not sure if I will remove them or not yet), and return pump section. From the return pump I have a UV unit that will be plumbed in hanging inside the stand above that section.

My main question is: should I trade out my Nac6 protein skimmer for a smaller unit? Now that I have it together in the sump/stand. I can not remove the skimmer neck section from the sump with the DT base in place. I can remove the overflow cup on the skimmer, just not the neck. So if there is ever an issue with the pump or anything, it's stuck in there unless I empty the DT to remove the base. Which I would prefer to avoid.

Anyone out there have ideas or recommendations on ways to fix this issue or any others you may foresee in the design and layout. Other things to note: it'll be a 90 DT peaceful reef, custom full spectrum led build for lighting, what you see in the stand for filtration (plus live rock and sand bed in DT). 2 ehiem heaters in the sump, (2) 1200 gph powerhead wavemaker in DT, and will be tied together through a reef angel.

Thanks in advance for reading through all this and any thoughts. RC has been a great resource as I've planned this build and slowly started piecing it together over the last year. I'm coming from 10+ years of freshwater, and finally upgrading from a 75 to 90 DT and switching to salt now that I have a house. I can't wait to get it filled... I'm getting closer!

shaginwagon13 · 01/27/2013, 02:42 PM

Your in a little bit of a jam right now. The sump walls are a little high and you most certainly want to access your skimmer and be able to remove it if necessary for maintenance and in case anything happens.

Would it be possible to get a submersible pump for your return and then buy an external protien skimmer that could go in the place of your external pump?

** There is a second problem with your sump. Get those bio-balls out now before you even start. They do nothing but collect dirt and detritis and you will get algae outbreaks and at some point need to remove them anyways. **

phenom5 · 01/27/2013, 03:25 PM

Agree about the bioballs.

You definitely do not want to go forward with this setup as it is. At some point you'll need to access your skimmer pump or pull the skimmer altogether. Honestly, I don't think the skimmer is the problem, any other skimmer you get will be similar in shape and size, and you don't really want a shorter skimmer. I would look into a more shallow sump, and stick with the skimmer you have.

troubadour11 · 01/27/2013, 03:26 PM

So the bioballs can be gone,that's fine. I wasn't expecting to use them from what I've read. Most likely I will want to fit one of my heaters in that section and ditch the balls. So I'm fine with that.

That's what I missed on the 1st post. I actually have a submersible Rio Reelflow 12HF. I will be plugging the external pump port on the sump and using that to hopefully push around 300-400 gph through the uv and return. So I suppose an external skimmer could be an option.

Any recommendations on a model you think would fit well I could research? Would you recommend that over a smaller skimmer that I could do in sump? Or do you think the clearance just won't fit many in-sump models that would be worthwhile to this size system? I was hoping to leave some space on the return side of the stand that I could use to expand any additional systems (dosing units or other filter additions) if I felt the need to add any of that as the system matures. That could be down the road, just trying to plan for any future possibilities. Since it will be tied to the reef angel, some of those could be an option as an expansion.

I also need to plan in some type of ato system. To get started, I'd like to put something like a small gravity fed float switch system in until I can work out a larger reservoir. Which will all be from an ro/di unit. So I'm thinking I'd like to see if there's a good in-sump model I could switch to, but I'm open to looking into some external skimmer options if that's the best option. What could I utilize all the space in the drain section for if I went that route?

troubadour11 · 01/27/2013, 03:55 PM

There is one thing my wife and I have thought about doing that could be a possible solution. But there are a few things about that make me not sure if it's a good idea.

We are expecting to put the tank in our living room area. The wall we are expecting to place it on backs up to a stairway. On the other side of the stairway is the garage. So in the garage, there is an access door to a storage room underneath the stair way. We've entrained the idea of plumbing the current sump set up into that storage area under the stairs where there would be plenty of space to remove equipment and have an ato reservoir.

Now... there is no lighting or power currently in that room. So I would have to run all the power through the wall from the inside living room where the reef angel could be set up (under the stand then where I'd have plenty of storage space for the tank) But I'm guessing that could be accomplished through an insulated hole in the wall with the plumbing? And I could easily set up a work light on an extension from the garage. But what about temp control on the system and oxygen exchange? The under stair storage is between the garage (non-temp regulated) and the house (central ac/heat). Do you think I could modify my plumbing to go through the wall an extra few feet and run the sump in that closet area? Any ideas on that being a possible solution as well? If there is no issue with that, I might lean more towards that then having to deal with swapping out the sump I got on sale more then a few months ago.

And thanks for chiming in with ideas and advice. I appreciate you helping me think through it. Let me know if my description of the layout didn't make sense. I can sketch it out really quick to make it more clear if needed.

thegrun · 01/27/2013, 05:56 PM

Here in socal I don't see the sump in the garage as much of an issue. I've seen several garage sump set-ups locally and some use removable Styrofoam panels on the sides and bottom to keep out heat/cold. One skimmer that would likely work is a Tunze DOC 9006. I've got one sitting in my garage as a spare you could try out to see if it fits if you live locally. PM me if you are interested. Removal of the entire skimmer unit is an absolute must, they all need periodic cleaning.

gbru316 · 01/27/2013, 06:08 PM

It's hard to tell from the pictures provided, but is the bottom of that stand raised off the ground?

If so, would cutting a hole in the stand and placing the sump inside the cutout give you enough room?

troubadour11 · 01/29/2013, 04:53 PM

Thanks for all the ideas everyone. I knew I had hit a bit of a snafu here...

Sorry it took me a few days to get back, I have been reading and thinking about the ideas. Well, that and I got carried away building out our mantelpiece on the fireplace Sunday and then have been swamped at work this week.

gbru316: - You are right. The base of the stand is slightly elevated. I could look into cutting a hole out to set the sump in. But after another assembly test and looking a little closer. I'm still not sure even that would give me enough clearance. I would need to raise it like 4-6 inches I bet to get full clearance of the skimmer neck.

Since thegrun has mentioned seeing successful sumps in garage areas here in SoCal... I'm starting to think the best option is to run the sump in that storage space under the stairs, between the garage and living room wall that the tank will back up to. My wife seems on-board with that idea as the simplest solution still being able to utilize this skimmer and set of equipment. It will help it keep a little quieter in the living room. Plus clear up LOTS of space to work on equipment, give me room for a semi-large ATO and other expansions, plus storage under the stand since it would be mostly empty for now without the sump.

Does anyone foresee any other issues there (with the sump under the stairs in a closet)?

I was worried a little about temp control. But as it was pointed out, I can put some insulation panels on to help. My real worry was more in the summer then in the winter. Between insulation around the sump, being in a closet against an interior wall, with 2 heaters, I think it will stay warm enough in winter. Being in that closet over summer, anyone think I should expect to have HUGE heat issues?

There is no electric, climate control, or drain in the closet currently. So to go through the wall, I'd just use a hole saw to run the drain/return lines through. Then I'd have to punch a 3rd hole to pass the electric cords through back inside. But that's about it I think. Would there be anything else I would have to cut through the wall for I'm not thinking of?

I'm at work right now and I have got to "get back to it." But I will try to jump in here soon and post a few sketches of the possible layout to go through the wall to help make things a little clearer.

01/27/2013, 02:35 PM	#1
troubadour11 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Southern California Posts: 628	Problem planning my sump and plumbing layout... Should I get a diferent skimmer? So I need some ideas, I think I foresee a problem. I've gathered a good amount of equipment and am ready to start planning out the plumbing and dry fitting everything together. In order to get my sump into the stand I have, I needed to remove the DT base and temporarily remove a 2x4 brace inside the stand. In the top down picture, you'll see I set the drain (1.5" on left) and return (.75" on right) bulkheads approximately where they will be a few inches inside the stand. I think this might be the best orientation for the sump so the drain/return ends are on the same sides. Let me know if this idea is flawed. In the sump then from the front or top view, you'll see the drain / skimmer section on the left, the middle refugium section, bubble trap (which currently has bio balls in it, not sure if I will remove them or not yet), and return pump section. From the return pump I have a UV unit that will be plumbed in hanging inside the stand above that section. My main question is: should I trade out my Nac6 protein skimmer for a smaller unit? Now that I have it together in the sump/stand. I can not remove the skimmer neck section from the sump with the DT base in place. I can remove the overflow cup on the skimmer, just not the neck. So if there is ever an issue with the pump or anything, it's stuck in there unless I empty the DT to remove the base. Which I would prefer to avoid. Anyone out there have ideas or recommendations on ways to fix this issue or any others you may foresee in the design and layout. Other things to note: it'll be a 90 DT peaceful reef, custom full spectrum led build for lighting, what you see in the stand for filtration (plus live rock and sand bed in DT). 2 ehiem heaters in the sump, (2) 1200 gph powerhead wavemaker in DT, and will be tied together through a reef angel. Thanks in advance for reading through all this and any thoughts. RC has been a great resource as I've planned this build and slowly started piecing it together over the last year. I'm coming from 10+ years of freshwater, and finally upgrading from a 75 to 90 DT and switching to salt now that I have a house. I can't wait to get it filled... I'm getting closer!

01/27/2013, 02:42 PM	#2
shaginwagon13 Chartered Accountant Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 2,219	Your in a little bit of a jam right now. The sump walls are a little high and you most certainly want to access your skimmer and be able to remove it if necessary for maintenance and in case anything happens. Would it be possible to get a submersible pump for your return and then buy an external protien skimmer that could go in the place of your external pump? There is a second problem with your sump. Get those bio-balls out now before you even start. They do nothing but collect dirt and detritis and you will get algae outbreaks and at some point need to remove them anyways. __________________ - Shaginwagon - Current Tank Info: 550 Gallon SPS Reef l 200 Gallon Sump l Skimmer: Vertex Alpha 250 l Return Pump: Reeflo Hammerhead l Tank Circulation: (2) Maxspect Gyre XF280 l Lighting: (3) 400w Halides & (3) AI Hydra 52 HD

01/27/2013, 03:25 PM	#3
phenom5 Unregistered Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,096	Agree about the bioballs. You definitely do not want to go forward with this setup as it is. At some point you'll need to access your skimmer pump or pull the skimmer altogether. Honestly, I don't think the skimmer is the problem, any other skimmer you get will be similar in shape and size, and you don't really want a shorter skimmer. I would look into a more shallow sump, and stick with the skimmer you have. __________________ Rob Current Tank Info: DSA 155 Pro \| ATI Sunpower \| ATB 840 v2 \| Apex \| Wav

01/27/2013, 03:26 PM	#4
troubadour11 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Southern California Posts: 628	So the bioballs can be gone,that's fine. I wasn't expecting to use them from what I've read. Most likely I will want to fit one of my heaters in that section and ditch the balls. So I'm fine with that. That's what I missed on the 1st post. I actually have a submersible Rio Reelflow 12HF. I will be plugging the external pump port on the sump and using that to hopefully push around 300-400 gph through the uv and return. So I suppose an external skimmer could be an option. Any recommendations on a model you think would fit well I could research? Would you recommend that over a smaller skimmer that I could do in sump? Or do you think the clearance just won't fit many in-sump models that would be worthwhile to this size system? I was hoping to leave some space on the return side of the stand that I could use to expand any additional systems (dosing units or other filter additions) if I felt the need to add any of that as the system matures. That could be down the road, just trying to plan for any future possibilities. Since it will be tied to the reef angel, some of those could be an option as an expansion. I also need to plan in some type of ato system. To get started, I'd like to put something like a small gravity fed float switch system in until I can work out a larger reservoir. Which will all be from an ro/di unit. So I'm thinking I'd like to see if there's a good in-sump model I could switch to, but I'm open to looking into some external skimmer options if that's the best option. What could I utilize all the space in the drain section for if I went that route?

01/27/2013, 03:55 PM	#5
troubadour11 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Southern California Posts: 628	There is one thing my wife and I have thought about doing that could be a possible solution. But there are a few things about that make me not sure if it's a good idea. We are expecting to put the tank in our living room area. The wall we are expecting to place it on backs up to a stairway. On the other side of the stairway is the garage. So in the garage, there is an access door to a storage room underneath the stair way. We've entrained the idea of plumbing the current sump set up into that storage area under the stairs where there would be plenty of space to remove equipment and have an ato reservoir. Now... there is no lighting or power currently in that room. So I would have to run all the power through the wall from the inside living room where the reef angel could be set up (under the stand then where I'd have plenty of storage space for the tank) But I'm guessing that could be accomplished through an insulated hole in the wall with the plumbing? And I could easily set up a work light on an extension from the garage. But what about temp control on the system and oxygen exchange? The under stair storage is between the garage (non-temp regulated) and the house (central ac/heat). Do you think I could modify my plumbing to go through the wall an extra few feet and run the sump in that closet area? Any ideas on that being a possible solution as well? If there is no issue with that, I might lean more towards that then having to deal with swapping out the sump I got on sale more then a few months ago. And thanks for chiming in with ideas and advice. I appreciate you helping me think through it. Let me know if my description of the layout didn't make sense. I can sketch it out really quick to make it more clear if needed.

01/27/2013, 05:56 PM	#6
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	Here in socal I don't see the sump in the garage as much of an issue. I've seen several garage sump set-ups locally and some use removable Styrofoam panels on the sides and bottom to keep out heat/cold. One skimmer that would likely work is a Tunze DOC 9006. I've got one sitting in my garage as a spare you could try out to see if it fits if you live locally. PM me if you are interested. Removal of the entire skimmer unit is an absolute must, they all need periodic cleaning.

01/27/2013, 06:08 PM	#7
gbru316 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Lancaster,PA Posts: 1,720	It's hard to tell from the pictures provided, but is the bottom of that stand raised off the ground? If so, would cutting a hole in the stand and placing the sump inside the cutout give you enough room?

01/29/2013, 04:53 PM	#8
troubadour11 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Southern California Posts: 628	Thanks for all the ideas everyone. I knew I had hit a bit of a snafu here... Sorry it took me a few days to get back, I have been reading and thinking about the ideas. Well, that and I got carried away building out our mantelpiece on the fireplace Sunday and then have been swamped at work this week. gbru316: - You are right. The base of the stand is slightly elevated. I could look into cutting a hole out to set the sump in. But after another assembly test and looking a little closer. I'm still not sure even that would give me enough clearance. I would need to raise it like 4-6 inches I bet to get full clearance of the skimmer neck. Since thegrun has mentioned seeing successful sumps in garage areas here in SoCal... I'm starting to think the best option is to run the sump in that storage space under the stairs, between the garage and living room wall that the tank will back up to. My wife seems on-board with that idea as the simplest solution still being able to utilize this skimmer and set of equipment. It will help it keep a little quieter in the living room. Plus clear up LOTS of space to work on equipment, give me room for a semi-large ATO and other expansions, plus storage under the stand since it would be mostly empty for now without the sump. Does anyone foresee any other issues there (with the sump under the stairs in a closet)? I was worried a little about temp control. But as it was pointed out, I can put some insulation panels on to help. My real worry was more in the summer then in the winter. Between insulation around the sump, being in a closet against an interior wall, with 2 heaters, I think it will stay warm enough in winter. Being in that closet over summer, anyone think I should expect to have HUGE heat issues? There is no electric, climate control, or drain in the closet currently. So to go through the wall, I'd just use a hole saw to run the drain/return lines through. Then I'd have to punch a 3rd hole to pass the electric cords through back inside. But that's about it I think. Would there be anything else I would have to cut through the wall for I'm not thinking of? I'm at work right now and I have got to "get back to it." But I will try to jump in here soon and post a few sketches of the possible layout to go through the wall to help make things a little clearer.