Nitrite won't go to zero using Dr Tim's One and Only

[Patrick Cox]

I am cycling a new tank and based on the steps I have taken, I expected this to go quicker but I must have missed a step. I let my pukani dry rock "cook" for about 6-8 weeks in order to remove as much bound up phosphate as I could. During this process I dosed SeaKlear. Towards the end of that process I started adding fish food to the bin. Hindsight, I should have added ammonium chloride and bacteria and then stayed on top of the cycle in the bin, but I didn't.

Once my tank arrived I filled it up with salt water and moved my rock to my new DT. This was about two weeks ago. At that time I added more frozen fish food and Bio Spira bacteria. I then later added Dr Tim's ammonium chloride and Dr Tim's One and Only bacteria. I have read that by using the One and Only bacteria, you can actually add fish immediately, but I was not going to do this. Now I have been testing my water over the past week and for some reason, my tank is not processing the nitrite like I expected. Ammonia is gone in a day. But nitrite is not. So each day I have tested both and found ammonia to be zero, nitrite to be about .1-.2, and then I add more ammonium chloride. So I am wondering if others have had this experience with these products? How long should it take when using this bacteria for the bacteria to process the nitrite?

Thanks!

[keithhays]

Are you dosing ammonium chloride to 3ppm and keeping it there every other day?

[Patrick Cox]

Originally Posted by keithhays

Are you dosing ammonium chloride to 3ppm and keeping it there every other day?

Yes I am dosing daily but I am not sure if I am getting to 3 ppm. The bottle instructs 1 drop per gallon to get to 2ppm and I am adding a bit more than that. How important is it to get up to 3 ppm?

[keithhays]

Really important. Here's why, you need to know when you are processing that much into nitrite and then into nitrate in 24 hours.

I think you are seeing it actually process quicker than normal because your rocks are actually processing it because they are already cycled at least partially.

Normally, it will take 3 days to have ammonia go to zero and about 10 weeks or so to have the nitrite go to zero.

Given your sort of hybrid method, you just need to make sure that you can go to zero on ammonia and nitrite within 24 hours. Don't measure nitrate while you have nitrites or you will get an incorrect reading. It will likely take a lot less time to get there than if you had started with just dead rock. I would actually measure the ammonia ppm with a kit after you dose because the drops weren't exactly accurate in my case.

I only used Dr. Tims and Ammonium with totally dead pukani so it took 3 months.

[keithhays]

btw, make sure when you dose the ammonium you are bringing the tank upto 3ppm and not just adding 3ppm or you will end up with a tank full of ammonia and a dead cylce.

[neuro]

Originally Posted by keithhays

I only used Dr. Tims and Ammonium with totally dead pukani so it took 3 months.

By "dead pukani" do you mean you simply put it into a tank to cycle without curing it? 3 months is a long time.

[keithhays]

yes, the reason its take so long is that the bacteria the convert nitrite to nitrate are extremely slow growing. I don't think the live bacteria that come with either the Dr. Tims or the Bio Spira have these particular bacteria or at least not in the correct state to do what they do. Both do shave several week off the process because you getting nitrite in about 3 days and that would normally be about 2 or 3 weeks and then only for small amounts of ammonia.

[neuro]

Sorry Patrick for hijacking. I would be very interested in hearing what your levels work out to become. I am in the same exact boat as you; I put the rocks from BRS into a tub for months, dosing with sea clear, and tap/hose (i was not going to waste RO/DI) water. I measured phosphates and changed out the water a few times until they got as low as they could. I will be receiving Dr Tim's in the mail sometime in the next few days and will be dosing it in the DT.

Originally Posted by keithhays

yes, the reason its take so long is that the bacteria the convert nitrite to nitrate are extremely slow growing. I don't think the live bacteria that come with either the Dr. Tims or the Bio Spira have these particular bacteria or at least not in the correct state to do what they do. Both do shave several week off the process because you getting nitrite in about 3 days and that would normally be about 2 or 3 weeks and then only for small amounts of ammonia.

I was under the impression that Dr Tim's Nitrifying bacteria did exactly what you're saying it may not be doing.

http://store.drtimsaquatics.com/One-...ria-_p_96.html

I guess everything has variables!

[MuldoonJT]

Good lord. The amount of time, effort and chemicals people spend to hurry something. Spend a few extra bucks and buy live rock that is actually ALIVE. instead of rock covered in dead and dieing garbage. Then dumping piles of miricle cures into the tank and trying voodoo.

My personal rant is live rock should be live. Not rock covered in dieing crap. You are better off buying live sand, dead dry rock for a base and then a few really NICE established rocks. This whole dead "live rock" ordered off the internet thing is weird to me. Why buy "live rock" to kill it then put it in a tank?

[keithhays]

Yes, there are definitely variables and I went a little nuts until I realized the instructions for the fishless cycle were different and no where doe it say how long it takes to get to zero nitrites: see below:
The quote below is taken from this page:
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resour...shless-cycling
"
FISHLESS CYCLING:
Day 1 – dose ammonia to 3 ppm
Days 5, 8, 11, 14 (every 3 days) – measure ammonia and nitrite
When both are gone add more ammonia to 3 ppm.
Now measure every 2 days – when both are gone add more ammonia
Now measure every day – when both are gone add more ammonia
Continue to measure every day – when both gone and you add more ammonia and both ammonia and nitrite are 0 in 24 hours you’re done!
Do a partial water change and add some fish!
"

[Patrick Cox]

Originally Posted by MuldoonJT

Good lord. The amount of time, effort and chemicals people spend to hurry something. Spend a few extra bucks and buy live rock that is actually ALIVE. instead of rock covered in dead and dieing garbage. Then dumping piles of miricle cures into the tank and trying voodoo.

My personal rant is live rock should be live. Not rock covered in dieing crap. You are better off buying live sand, dead dry rock for a base and then a few really NICE established rocks. This whole dead "live rock" ordered off the internet thing is weird to me. Why buy "live rock" to kill it then put it in a tank?

Me not buying live rock has nothing to do with spending a few extra bucks. I bought live rock last time around and I ended up with red planaria flatworms in plague proportions, aiptasia and a bristle worm that killed my tube anemone. So I made a conscious decision with this tank to avoid live rock. I am trying to have a little more control over what ends up in my tank. I also prefer the look of Pukani to most live rock I have seen.

[neuro]

Originally Posted by Patrick Cox

Me not buying live rock has nothing to do with spending a few extra bucks. I bought live rock last time around and I ended up with red planaria flatworms in plague proportions, aiptasia and a bristle worm that killed my tube anemone. So I made a conscious decision with this tank to avoid live rock. I am trying to have a little more control over what ends up in my tank. I also prefer the look of Pukani to most live rock I have seen.

+1. Dead rock allows me to aquascape the way I want. BRS had really nice branching rock that I'm using. I'm also not buying rock that includes water weight.

Plus, Patrick and I aren't just throwing them into the tank. We're cycling them for months.

[Patrick Cox]

Originally Posted by keithhays

Yes, there are definitely variables and I went a little nuts until I realized the instructions for the fishless cycle were different and no where doe it say how long it takes to get to zero nitrites: see below:
The quote below is taken from this page:
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resour...shless-cycling
"
FISHLESS CYCLING:
Day 1 – dose ammonia to 3 ppm
Days 5, 8, 11, 14 (every 3 days) – measure ammonia and nitrite
When both are gone add more ammonia to 3 ppm.
Now measure every 2 days – when both are gone add more ammonia
Now measure every day – when both are gone add more ammonia
Continue to measure every day – when both gone and you add more ammonia and both ammonia and nitrite are 0 in 24 hours you’re done!
Do a partial water change and add some fish!
"

Thanks, yes I have seen this. It also says that the use of the One and Only should speed the process. They also talk about how you can simply add the One and Only and add fish. Not sure how that works if the product will not remove nitrite quickly?

On getting ammonia to 3 ppm, I can't seem to get there and I am afraid of adding too much ammonium choloride. I can't get the color of my test kit to go really dark though. I am using Salifert. Do I really need to get a dark orange color to get to the concentration I need? This is not my test kit but a picture of the Salifert card.

[keithhays]

There are specific reasons why those of us who go with dead rock and a known bacteria strain do it. We are generally trying avoid the creepy crawlies that the live rock guys seem to love, but cause all kinds of havoc in the long run.

Plus we don't have to pay $9.00 a pound plus wet shipping for the privilege.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Patrick Cox

Thanks, yes I have seen this. It also says that the use of the One and Only should speed the process. They also talk about how you can simply add the One and Only and add fish. Not sure how that works if the product will not remove nitrite quickly?

On getting ammonia to 3 ppm, I can't seem to get there and I am afraid of adding too much ammonium choloride. I can't get the color of my test kit to go really dark though. I am using Salifert. Do I really need to get a dark orange color to get to the concentration I need? This is not my test kit but a picture of the Salifert card.

I don't use salifert, but I know they are good test kits. If you didn't use an Prime or similar dechlorinator products in your water then you should add the ammonium until it reaches 3ppm.

[cap032]

Im doing the Dr Tims now. My API test kit wouldnt read any nitrites at all. Im using BRS Eco rock. My ammonia however was hitting 0 about every 3 days, so after the first week I picked up a Seachem test kit. It reads my nitrites. Im now entering week 3 and both ammonia and nitrites are 0 in two days. Ammonia is actually about 36hrs. I would guess in another week, I will be coverting both to 0 in 24hrs and finishing the cycle.

[cap032]

Originally Posted by Patrick Cox

Thanks, yes I have seen this. It also says that the use of the One and Only should speed the process. They also talk about how you can simply add the One and Only and add fish. Not sure how that works if the product will not remove nitrite quickly?

On getting ammonia to 3 ppm, I can't seem to get there and I am afraid of adding too much ammonium choloride. I can't get the color of my test kit to go really dark though. I am using Salifert. Do I really need to get a dark orange color to get to the concentration I need? This is not my test kit but a picture of the Salifert card.

My API ammonia test kit works really well. The nitrite one was ineffective. You could run out to your nearest pet store and get the API ammonia kit for less than $10. It would at least give you a comparison and peace of mind. If you dose ammonia over 5ppm it can stall your cycle. Nitrite over 5ppm can stall the cycle as well.

[Patrick Cox]

Originally Posted by cap032

My API ammonia test kit works really well. The nitrite one was ineffective. You could run out to your nearest pet store and get the API ammonia kit for less than $10. It would at least give you a comparison and peace of mind. If you dose ammonia over 5ppm it can stall your cycle. Nitrite over 5ppm can stall the cycle as well.

Thanks. I ended up putting one drop of the ammonium chloride in the vile of test water to see how the test kit worked and it definitely showed high ammonia with that test. However both my test kit and my seachem ammonia alert card won't reach what I would think is 3 ppm in the tank. I know I am putting ammonia in there so I guess I will continue my current process till my nitrite hits zero in a day.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by cap032

Im doing the Dr Tims now. My API test kit wouldnt read any nitrites at all. Im using BRS Eco rock. My ammonia however was hitting 0 about every 3 days, so after the first week I picked up a Seachem test kit. It reads my nitrites. Im now entering week 3 and both ammonia and nitrites are 0 in two days. Ammonia is actually about 36hrs. I would guess in another week, I will be coverting both to 0 in 24hrs and finishing the cycle.

That's awesome, that would put you at about a month. What's the maximum nitrites you read?

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Patrick Cox

Thanks. I ended up putting one drop of the ammonium chloride in the vile of test water to see how the test kit worked and it definitely showed high ammonia with that test. However both my test kit and my seachem ammonia alert card won't reach what I would think is 3 ppm in the tank. I know I am putting ammonia in there so I guess I will continue my current process till my nitrite hits zero in a day.

Don't use the alert on this, it only measures ionic ammonia and you need to measure total ammonia. If there is a calculation somewhere in your instructions for total ammonia, that is what you need.

[Deinonych]

I started cycling my QT about 3 weeks ago. I dosed with ammonium chloride to 3ppm at the beginning, saw ammonia drop to ~0.5 after a few days, then dosed up to 3ppm again. It took about 2 weeks for ammonia to drop to 0 again (not sure why). Now I'm seeing my nitrites spike, but I'm hesitant to add more ammonium chloride at this point, as I don't want my nitrites to go over 5ppm (they are around 3-4ppm currently). I think I'm going to wait until nitrites fall off a bit before I dose more ammonia. Does this make sense?

Seeing the same pattern with my DT, but at a more rapid rate (assuming because it has more surface area for bacteria to grow).

Edit: I used Dr. Tim's One and Only to dose both tanks at the beginning.

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by Patrick Cox

I can't get the color of my test kit to go really dark though. I am using Salifert. Do I really need to get a dark orange color to get to the concentration I need? This is not my test kit but a picture of the Salifert card.

I could never get my Salifert kit to show an appreciable change in color, so I switched to API which has worked. I also used Tetra test strips to double-check.

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by Deinonych

I started cycling my QT about 3 weeks ago. I dosed with ammonium chloride to 3ppm at the beginning, saw ammonia drop to ~0.5 after a few days, then dosed up to 3ppm again. It took about 2 weeks for ammonia to drop to 0 again (not sure why). Now I'm seeing my nitrites spike, but I'm hesitant to add more ammonium chloride at this point, as I don't want my nitrites to go over 5ppm (they are around 3-4ppm currently). I think I'm going to wait until nitrites fall off a bit before I dose more ammonia. Does this make sense?

Seeing the same pattern with my DT, but at a more rapid rate (assuming because it has more surface area for bacteria to grow).

Edit: I used Dr. Tim's One and Only to dose both tanks at the beginning.

This does make sense, this is what the Dr. Tims site says about it:
"The other big problem is that the cycling process seems to stall with ammonia or nitrite not dropping anymore. Usually this is due to a low pH value (less than 7.0). The conversion of the ammonia and nitrite by the bacteria naturally produces an acid that will lower the water pH. If the pH gets too low, however, the nitrification (cycling) process will stop. So if you add a lot of ammonia over the course of a week and get the cycling cranking, you can actually cause the pH to drop to a low value and ‘stall’ the entire process. The way to get the cycling going again is to simply do a 25 to 20% water change. This will increase the pH and usually gets the cycling process going again."

In a different section it warns about ammonia or nitrite going above 5ppm.

It in fact it could be part of the reason my cycle to little longer because it was sometime before I saw the 5ppm limit rule for nitrite. You might consider a water change if either are true.

[SantaMonica]

Another variation might be to add rock a little at a time. If the amount of rock is little enough, the cycle is produces won't be enough to hurt anything. This might avoid the need for ammonia in the first place.

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by keithhays

This does make sense, this is what the Dr. Tims site says about it:
"The other big problem is that the cycling process seems to stall with ammonia or nitrite not dropping anymore. Usually this is due to a low pH value (less than 7.0). The conversion of the ammonia and nitrite by the bacteria naturally produces an acid that will lower the water pH. If the pH gets too low, however, the nitrification (cycling) process will stop. So if you add a lot of ammonia over the course of a week and get the cycling cranking, you can actually cause the pH to drop to a low value and ‘stall’ the entire process. The way to get the cycling going again is to simply do a 25 to 20% water change. This will increase the pH and usually gets the cycling process going again."

In a different section it warns about ammonia or nitrite going above 5ppm.

It in fact it could be part of the reason my cycle to little longer because it was sometime before I saw the 5ppm limit rule for nitrite. You might consider a water change if either are true.

Thanks. My pH is in good shape in both tanks (~8.3 according to my Salifert test), so I'll just wait things out. I probably won't dose again in my QT, as it will probably never fully cycle due to the low surface area for bacterial growth. I plan to manage the nutrients through water changes anyway.

I'm using dry BRS rock in my DT, hence my decision to seed with Dr. Tim's. I do have a small chunk of LR from my LFS in my sump, which is probably helping things along considerably in the DT.