need advice on manually seeding dry rock after cycle

dthorn · 03/05/2013, 07:45 PM

I am starting a new 56g reef as an upgrade from a 27g. I decided to go with dry rock and can't seed with existing live rock due to edwardsiidae anemones and purple mushrooms everywhere. Cost and the risk of bad hitchikers is why I decided to go dry, but want to have the diversity in the new tank I have in the other. If necessary, I can take pics of all the creatures in question, but will skip it for now since identification may not be necessary. What I hope to do is remove the wanted creatures from existing live rock to seed the dry rock, but haven't really found any information about people doing this. Pink and white sponges, mini feather dusters, tiny purple unknown ball sponges(about the size of a pencil eraser with a hole in the center and tiny little fingers that attach it to live rock, and a few shelled unknown creatures. I would like to know if they can safely be removed from the live rock without killing them? Can regular sponges be cut away from rock somehow or do I have to break pieces of the rock to move them? Lots of the little ball sponges so trial and error may answer, but can I carefully cut or pull them off? Slightly more worried about the shelled creatures, as reading tells me they rarely survive in our tanks in the first place. One has a rough shell like an oyster, one has a tan striped clam like shell with little fingers near the opening, and third has a clam like shell with rough edges that resemble the legs of a serpent star (thought there was another creature inside until I looked closer) and has a tan and black pattern. All three can regularly be seen with mouth out feeding so they are definitely alive and happy. Can I carefully pry or cut them off the rock and move to new tank? If so, will they find their own spot or do I need to place/glue them to new rock? And finally, is there any way to transfer the tiny little feather dusters as well?

I know a lot of questions at once, but on a topic I can't seem to find any information on. The creatures I'm trying to leave behind particularly the nems can be so tiny they can barely be seen and can retract into the holes in the rock. They are also, unknown, unidentifiable, and did I metion unknown!? Everyone suggested starting from scratch was my only option, so hopefully someone can help me get some of the good stuff in my new tank without risk of bringing the bad. New tank is still cycling so I have a bit of time to figure this out. Thanks for any advice or experience anyone has on this subject and happy reefing!

Btw...Spent all my money getting the new tank running and saving for a skimmer, more lighting, and better testing equipment so buying goodies and cured rock to just throw in isn't going to be an option for a while if I decide do that at all.

Sk8r · 03/05/2013, 11:47 PM

If you had rock in the sump of tank A with the live rock above, what would seed down there would be everything but the shrooms. Whatever you do, don't scrape them: they'll multiply. Best way to make shrooms move is to pile rubble on them: they'll go to the top of it. Then you remove the rubble and trade it to your lfs. Can't help you on the nems.

dthorn · 03/06/2013, 01:51 AM

No sump on either tank. If I put new rock in old tank I will probably end up with nems in the new tank. I'm surprised more people with dry rock haven't asked about manually seeding it like I would like to do. Maybe it's just not possible, hoping someone will know. I just want to manually remove/frag the good stuff to avoid bringing the bad. Not so worried about the mushrooms I'll either keep the 27g as a softie and mushroom tank or sell it. I need goodies in the new tank and hate the thought of having to buy stuff I already have. The nems may actually be a good thing, just don't want to risk it in my new tank since so little is known about them. 8 year old system that was horribly neglected when I bought it. Wonder if these guys who don't bother fish or corals are part of the reason there's no aiptasia in my tank (not that I would ever consider finding out the hard way) there are hundreds of them in the darkness so if they were really bad I would know buy now. Noticed tonight that there's more life in the sb in the back of the tank where most of the nems are than the front. This would suggest they aren't feeding on the good guys. The fact that they haven't crashed the tank says they are likely removing more waste than they are adding. They also have absolutely no interest in corals they can easily reach. Clearly, I've decided that these creatures don't deserve death, but not risking my brand new tank until I know way way more about them. I may try introducing a few in my 6g edge for some experimentation and would like to see if a local place with lots of aiptasia would try them in one of their isolated tanks to see what happens. If they beat out aiptasia, bet people would want to learn more about them. Besides aggressively hunting snails, these creatures are by far the most unique and interesting things in my tank. Nobody knows exactly what they are, aside from being an unknown species of edwardsiidae. A group known to have more unidentified species than ones with names. As much as I could spend forever talking about these nems, I should try to keep this thread focused on my original questions. Easy to find information about identifying and getting rid of hitchhikers, and using live rock to seed dry rock. Just can't seem to find any about doing it in a way that fits my situation. Old rock is still leeching phosphate after six months with chemipure elite and polyfilter, but gaining ground since I've added some rowaphos to the mix. So just another of several reasons I'm hoping not to have to put any actual rock pieces in the new tank, just the creatures living on them. Any help on this matter would be much appreciated!

djp2313 · 03/06/2013, 08:36 AM

You have me intrigued now, got any pics of the nems?

dthorn · 03/06/2013, 01:57 PM

Haven't had any luck posting pics in threads with my cell, but there are some pictures in my profile in the hitchiker album.

Sk8r · 03/06/2013, 02:34 PM

I'd advise then that you get one good rock, one small rock you're pretty sure doesn't have the species you're worried about, and put it in with the dry rock. Give it 12 weeks to cycle, and it should 'take', though don't push it too fast, 4 more weeks of snails, then first fish.

YOu should sell your other rock. You're coming up on 90 days membership, and the sales forums should open up for you in a few weeks.

scuzy · 03/06/2013, 02:37 PM

I would seed it by buying pods online then you can eliminate the bad nems

dthorn · 03/06/2013, 06:10 PM

I have added a small amount of liverock from the top of old tank to seed the new stuff with microorganisms, but still would like to know if I can move any of these larger items. Planning on going much slower with the new tank.

03/05/2013, 07:45 PM	#1
dthorn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: erie pa Posts: 280	need advice on manually seeding dry rock after cycle I am starting a new 56g reef as an upgrade from a 27g. I decided to go with dry rock and can't seed with existing live rock due to edwardsiidae anemones and purple mushrooms everywhere. Cost and the risk of bad hitchikers is why I decided to go dry, but want to have the diversity in the new tank I have in the other. If necessary, I can take pics of all the creatures in question, but will skip it for now since identification may not be necessary. What I hope to do is remove the wanted creatures from existing live rock to seed the dry rock, but haven't really found any information about people doing this. Pink and white sponges, mini feather dusters, tiny purple unknown ball sponges(about the size of a pencil eraser with a hole in the center and tiny little fingers that attach it to live rock, and a few shelled unknown creatures. I would like to know if they can safely be removed from the live rock without killing them? Can regular sponges be cut away from rock somehow or do I have to break pieces of the rock to move them? Lots of the little ball sponges so trial and error may answer, but can I carefully cut or pull them off? Slightly more worried about the shelled creatures, as reading tells me they rarely survive in our tanks in the first place. One has a rough shell like an oyster, one has a tan striped clam like shell with little fingers near the opening, and third has a clam like shell with rough edges that resemble the legs of a serpent star (thought there was another creature inside until I looked closer) and has a tan and black pattern. All three can regularly be seen with mouth out feeding so they are definitely alive and happy. Can I carefully pry or cut them off the rock and move to new tank? If so, will they find their own spot or do I need to place/glue them to new rock? And finally, is there any way to transfer the tiny little feather dusters as well? I know a lot of questions at once, but on a topic I can't seem to find any information on. The creatures I'm trying to leave behind particularly the nems can be so tiny they can barely be seen and can retract into the holes in the rock. They are also, unknown, unidentifiable, and did I metion unknown!? Everyone suggested starting from scratch was my only option, so hopefully someone can help me get some of the good stuff in my new tank without risk of bringing the bad. New tank is still cycling so I have a bit of time to figure this out. Thanks for any advice or experience anyone has on this subject and happy reefing! Btw...Spent all my money getting the new tank running and saving for a skimmer, more lighting, and better testing equipment so buying goodies and cured rock to just throw in isn't going to be an option for a while if I decide do that at all.

03/05/2013, 11:47 PM	#2
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	If you had rock in the sump of tank A with the live rock above, what would seed down there would be everything but the shrooms. Whatever you do, don't scrape them: they'll multiply. Best way to make shrooms move is to pile rubble on them: they'll go to the top of it. Then you remove the rubble and trade it to your lfs. Can't help you on the nems. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/06/2013, 02:34 PM	#6
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	I'd advise then that you get one good rock, one small rock you're pretty sure doesn't have the species you're worried about, and put it in with the dry rock. Give it 12 weeks to cycle, and it should 'take', though don't push it too fast, 4 more weeks of snails, then first fish. YOu should sell your other rock. You're coming up on 90 days membership, and the sales forums should open up for you in a few weeks. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/06/2013, 01:51 AM	#3
dthorn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: erie pa Posts: 280	No sump on either tank. If I put new rock in old tank I will probably end up with nems in the new tank. I'm surprised more people with dry rock haven't asked about manually seeding it like I would like to do. Maybe it's just not possible, hoping someone will know. I just want to manually remove/frag the good stuff to avoid bringing the bad. Not so worried about the mushrooms I'll either keep the 27g as a softie and mushroom tank or sell it. I need goodies in the new tank and hate the thought of having to buy stuff I already have. The nems may actually be a good thing, just don't want to risk it in my new tank since so little is known about them. 8 year old system that was horribly neglected when I bought it. Wonder if these guys who don't bother fish or corals are part of the reason there's no aiptasia in my tank (not that I would ever consider finding out the hard way) there are hundreds of them in the darkness so if they were really bad I would know buy now. Noticed tonight that there's more life in the sb in the back of the tank where most of the nems are than the front. This would suggest they aren't feeding on the good guys. The fact that they haven't crashed the tank says they are likely removing more waste than they are adding. They also have absolutely no interest in corals they can easily reach. Clearly, I've decided that these creatures don't deserve death, but not risking my brand new tank until I know way way more about them. I may try introducing a few in my 6g edge for some experimentation and would like to see if a local place with lots of aiptasia would try them in one of their isolated tanks to see what happens. If they beat out aiptasia, bet people would want to learn more about them. Besides aggressively hunting snails, these creatures are by far the most unique and interesting things in my tank. Nobody knows exactly what they are, aside from being an unknown species of edwardsiidae. A group known to have more unidentified species than ones with names. As much as I could spend forever talking about these nems, I should try to keep this thread focused on my original questions. Easy to find information about identifying and getting rid of hitchhikers, and using live rock to seed dry rock. Just can't seem to find any about doing it in a way that fits my situation. Old rock is still leeching phosphate after six months with chemipure elite and polyfilter, but gaining ground since I've added some rowaphos to the mix. So just another of several reasons I'm hoping not to have to put any actual rock pieces in the new tank, just the creatures living on them. Any help on this matter would be much appreciated!

03/06/2013, 08:36 AM	#4
djp2313 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 75	You have me intrigued now, got any pics of the nems?

03/06/2013, 01:57 PM	#5
dthorn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: erie pa Posts: 280	Haven't had any luck posting pics in threads with my cell, but there are some pictures in my profile in the hitchiker album.

03/06/2013, 02:37 PM	#7
scuzy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 6,499	I would seed it by buying pods online then you can eliminate the bad nems

03/06/2013, 06:10 PM	#8
dthorn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: erie pa Posts: 280	I have added a small amount of liverock from the top of old tank to seed the new stuff with microorganisms, but still would like to know if I can move any of these larger items. Planning on going much slower with the new tank.