Question about Head Loss

reefkeep3r · 05/09/2013, 11:24 AM

Hello everyone,

I am trying to run the math and found a flaw in my thinking. I have a 1" return line but, as we all now there is no 1" loc-line. So I am going to reduce to 3/4. When I use the headloss calc to help determine the pump I should get for the flow I wan't, do I use 3/4" or 1" for the pipe size. At first thought I would say 3/4" but there is a big difference sometimes in using the 3/4" and 1" selections. The other thought would be use 1" and know I will be somewhat less given the reduction to 3/4" for the last few inches of piping. Any ideas or clarification would be appreciated.

PS: The tank is a Coralife Biocube 29 drilled for a 1" drain and 1" return.

meisel1 · 05/09/2013, 11:31 AM

you should use the calculations based ont the pipe size you have.Keep in mind a single 1 inch overflow will be less than 300gph.

reefkeep3r · 05/09/2013, 12:16 PM

I will have both sizes. 1" up to tank and into bulkhead then reducer to 3/4" for about 8" to end of Loc-line.

Fizz71 · 05/09/2013, 01:38 PM

You'll want to do all the calculation on what is used the most...sounds like 1". But that last 1" to 3/4" will put a serious damper on volume. Did you consider using a Y from 1" to two 3/4" connectors and then using TWO loclines?

bnumair · 05/09/2013, 01:56 PM

Ur flow will be restricted to max flow gph of the smallest part in the equation. Which in ur case is 3/4".
Water by force or by natural gravity can only travel at well known and calculated rate through a certain pipe size.
3/4" size is rated at most 2160gph by pump or 660gph by natural gravity.

reefkeep3r · 05/09/2013, 07:08 PM

Fizz: I would like to but I haven't seen any 1" to 3/4" Y. Can you point me in a direction for one.

bnumair: I understand that, but I would have assumed the 1" run would have to be better then 3/4 the entire way. I am probably wrong but can't get over it.

squishifishi · 05/09/2013, 07:14 PM

great title!

had to do a retake there when I read the title!

Fizz71 · 05/10/2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefkeep3r

Fizz: I would like to but I haven't seen any 1" to 3/4" Y. Can you point me in a direction for one.

I get all my stuff from Lowes and Home Depot. If they don't have a 1" to 2x3/4" Y then get a 1" to 2x1" Y (standard 1" Y) and put two 1" to 3/4" bushings in each and you've made you own 1" to 2x3/4" Y.

As long as you use a Y and not a T you won't lose too much--the two 3/4" pipes hold 23% more water volume then a 1" pipe (in schedule 40 pipe..assuming my math is right).

And if you run all 3/4" instead of 1" you'll have less head pressure loss from gravity, but more from friction...especially if you have any turns. If you're pumping up a whole floor it might be something to consider, but for normally short/tight returns you're better off sticking with the output your pump is geared for.

And I know you didn't ask...but don't get too caught up on your return speed. Just make sure it doesn't exceed your drain speed. Make the return as efficient as you can, but don't pick knits (does anybody actually use that phrase anymore?). Get your flow from powerheads, they're cheaper to run.

Example:
LG 4-MDQX-SC Pump at 6ft head will get you 800gph for 145W. (1" I/O)
LG 2-MDQX-SC Pump at 6ft will only get you 370gph at 96W (1" I/O) but when paired with 6.5W Koralia rated at a 1500gph equivalent you get more than twice the water flow at a 30% less electrical cost (and costs less at the store as well..$20 less on MarineDepot).
...Now I just pulled those pumps out of the air..I don't know how good the LGs are anymore (I'm a Reeflo guy) but the concept should be the same with most pumps: return pumps drastically cost more per gph than powerheads. My tank turnover from the sump is a measly 4x.

When I was picking a return pump I looked just as hard at Amps and Watts as I did at GPH...especially since I have a good 20ft of head pressure. Some pumps are more pressure rated (slow but less loss from head pressure), some are more flow rated (fast, but lose speed drastically with head pressure). Pressure pump generally cost more at the electrical outlet.

Also...I just reread your post and if you are saying you have 2x1" holes in the overflow I would probably put 2x1" drains in there and have the return come in someplace else. I don't like having only one drain in an overflow...it's a Murphy thing...also a noise thing. I you do feel the need to use one for a drain and one for a return it's very easy to plumb a 3/4" pipe through a 1" bulkhead...A lot of your efficient return pumps will have a smaller output than an input to generate pressure, not just flow (you'll have a slower drop from head pressure).

Happy hunting.

Fizz71 · 05/10/2013, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squishifishi

great title!

had to do a retake there when I read the title!

(my first thought was "don't get married")

reefkeep3r · 05/13/2013, 04:31 PM

Fizz, Sorry for the delayed response. I needed to go out of town and couldn't get a response. Anyways thanks for all the good information. It appears I have more to think about again. Seems like I always have more to think about. The joys of being a new reefer.

There are actually 3 drilled holes. I would like to setup a Herbie system.

Ps. I am getting married soon

Sk8r · 05/13/2013, 04:36 PM

Lol---main thing, get a pump that's just a shade more powerful than you need and install a valve in your return line: that way you can fine-tune the thing to get the flow the way you want, particularly important when you're trying to quiet an overflow. If you put a valve on both 'up' and 'down' lines, and can balance the two, you can be sure your durso or herbie intake is submerged, ergo quiet.

Fizz71 · 05/14/2013, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefkeep3r

Fizz, Sorry for the delayed response. I needed to go out of town and couldn't get a response. Anyways thanks for all the good information. It appears I have more to think about again. Seems like I always have more to think about. The joys of being a new reefer.

There are actually 3 drilled holes. I would like to setup a Herbie system.

Ps. I am getting married soon

Herbie iis a good layout...I'm still on a modified durso because it's quite enough for me. I'm glad you have 3 holes...you originally said "The tank is a Coralife Biocube 29 drilled for a 1" drain and 1" return"..if you have TWO 1in holes for the drain I would merge them to something bigger than 1"..you can't really oversize your drain line...I think mine is 3 inches.

And make sure you let your fiance pick out corals and a fish or two....she needs to love the tank as much as you do so you don't constantly argue about what you spend on it.

Deinonych · 05/14/2013, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fizz71

(my first thought was "don't get married")

I'm not so sure about that.

Fizz71 · 05/14/2013, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deinonych

I'm not so sure about that.

I will never be able to look at that emoticon with a straight face again.

fishgate · 05/14/2013, 12:25 PM

I split my 2 returns into 4 3/4" loc-line fittings. Each side has a 1" tee and from each tee is the 1" (slip) to 3/4" (threaded) adapter. All stock at HD.

sleepydoc · 05/14/2013, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnumair

Ur flow will be restricted to max flow gph of the smallest part in the equation. Which in ur case is 3/4".

This is not exactly true. The resistance of piping is additive, dependent on flow, and non-linear. A 3/4" nozzle will definitely restrict the flow, but that does not mean you can neglect the rest of the system.

bnumair · 05/14/2013, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepydoc

This is not exactly true. The resistance of piping is additive, dependent on flow, and non-linear. A 3/4" nozzle will definitely restrict the flow, but that does not mean you can neglect the rest of the system.

so ur telling me that say u have a pump that pushes 6000 gal per hour and requires a 1.5" pvc pipe.
lets say u run the pvc outlet pipe 1-2 ft up and with head loss ur getting 5800gph. now put a reducer at the end of the same pipe and make it 3/4".
u will get the same 5800gph out of it if u reduces the outlet? i dont think so.
reason is that each size pvc is rated for a maximum flow.
u can experiment it this way too. u can get gph out of the outlet with few feet of pvc then cut the pvc in half and put a reducer in between. basically from pump it comes out 1.5 for a foot then reduced to 3/4" then back to 1.5"
you will see that it will only put out the max gph at what 3/4" pipe is rated for.

reefkeep3r · 05/15/2013, 07:16 AM

I am glad to see we have a nice discussion going now.

Fizz: I am letting her pick out fish and corals. I think I found a topic for a new thread.

Sk8r: After reading all of your stickys and other thread contributions, I feel honored that you chimed in. I will have both sides with valves.

I am looking into away of splitting the return. Has any body used one of the flow accelerators such as http://www.marinedepot.com/Ista_Vort...FIFTFB-vi.html They come in a 1" size so that would easily solve my problem.

I want to give some explanation of what I wan't to do. The tank is a Coralife BC29. Initially I will be setting up without a sump but all plumbed tank side for it. As I can build more funds and start increasing the bioload, I want to add a fuge to the system in the stand. Given the size of the stand it will be small. From what I gathered the flow rate in a fuge is highly debated but I think 300gph seems to be a good target. The reason I choose 1" plumbing is one day I would like a much bigger system and would like to be able to tie the cube into it in some function. The 1" I think should be able to handle what ever the future holds and make is completely silent now.

05/09/2013, 11:24 AM	#1
reefkeep3r Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	Question about Head Loss Hello everyone, I am trying to run the math and found a flaw in my thinking. I have a 1" return line but, as we all now there is no 1" loc-line. So I am going to reduce to 3/4. When I use the headloss calc to help determine the pump I should get for the flow I wan't, do I use 3/4" or 1" for the pipe size. At first thought I would say 3/4" but there is a big difference sometimes in using the 3/4" and 1" selections. The other thought would be use 1" and know I will be somewhat less given the reduction to 3/4" for the last few inches of piping. Any ideas or clarification would be appreciated. PS: The tank is a Coralife Biocube 29 drilled for a 1" drain and 1" return.

05/09/2013, 11:31 AM	#2
meisel1 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: aurora ontario Posts: 529	you should use the calculations based ont the pipe size you have.Keep in mind a single 1 inch overflow will be less than 300gph. __________________ current tanks..150 gal diy dt. 60 gal sump, 37 gal macro tank...2x maxspect razor 160, maxspect gyre. 2x mp 10. JNS co2 skimmer. Kamoer triple doser.

05/09/2013, 01:38 PM	#4
Fizz71 FragSwapper Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: West Lawn, PA Posts: 5,800	You'll want to do all the calculation on what is used the most...sounds like 1". But that last 1" to 3/4" will put a serious damper on volume. Did you consider using a Y from 1" to two 3/4" connectors and then using TWO loclines? __________________ --Fizz Current Tank Info: Current system is 8x2x2 240g peninsula setup with a single "chamber" 100g sump in the basement with an RDSB. All corals are 100% home grown from frags of fellow reefers (low natural reef impact).

05/09/2013, 01:56 PM	#5
bnumair Dr. Reef at ur service Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA Posts: 7,751 Blog Entries: 15	Ur flow will be restricted to max flow gph of the smallest part in the equation. Which in ur case is 3/4". Water by force or by natural gravity can only travel at well known and calculated rate through a certain pipe size. 3/4" size is rated at most 2160gph by pump or 660gph by natural gravity. __________________ Water Quality: NO3 0,Phos 0,Cal 440,Alk 7.5,Mag 1300 "Reef Fast, You Crash, Reef Slow, You Pass" Mike's Reef 3:16 Current Tank Info: 350g DT,95g sump, 50g Frag tank, 4800gph return 4x Sea swirls. 6x AI Vega Color. 200# Pukani rock, dual recirculating skimmer, Biopellet, GFO Carbon rx's, Cal rx. Closed loop. 1.5hp chiller, genesis renew. Apex & RKE

05/09/2013, 07:14 PM	#7
squishifishi Hopelesly Addicted Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 972	great title! had to do a retake there when I read the title! __________________ ><(((((°>squishifishi! if I say anything stupid...blame autocorrect ;) I love my pico! Come see for yourself, check it out! just search for "pictures at last" in the nano forums:) Current Tank Info: 2.5g pico reef: 5-15hob filter, 10w led light,Stock;neon goby,Pom Pom crab,hermits, astrea, margarita, nassarius, micro brittles, shrooms,palys, xenia, galaxea, zoas,ricordea, litho,chalice,leather,pocci,.WISH LIST:sexy shrimp

05/09/2013, 12:16 PM	#3
reefkeep3r Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	I will have both sizes. 1" up to tank and into bulkhead then reducer to 3/4" for about 8" to end of Loc-line.

05/09/2013, 07:08 PM	#6
reefkeep3r Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	Fizz: I would like to but I haven't seen any 1" to 3/4" Y. Can you point me in a direction for one. bnumair: I understand that, but I would have assumed the 1" run would have to be better then 3/4 the entire way. I am probably wrong but can't get over it.

05/13/2013, 04:31 PM	#10
reefkeep3r Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	Fizz, Sorry for the delayed response. I needed to go out of town and couldn't get a response. Anyways thanks for all the good information. It appears I have more to think about again. Seems like I always have more to think about. The joys of being a new reefer. There are actually 3 drilled holes. I would like to setup a Herbie system. Ps. I am getting married soon

05/13/2013, 04:36 PM	#11
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Lol---main thing, get a pump that's just a shade more powerful than you need and install a valve in your return line: that way you can fine-tune the thing to get the flow the way you want, particularly important when you're trying to quiet an overflow. If you put a valve on both 'up' and 'down' lines, and can balance the two, you can be sure your durso or herbie intake is submerged, ergo quiet. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

05/14/2013, 12:25 PM	#15
fishgate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Damascus, MD Posts: 3,340	I split my 2 returns into 4 3/4" loc-line fittings. Each side has a 1" tee and from each tee is the 1" (slip) to 3/4" (threaded) adapter. All stock at HD. __________________ 125RR in-wall, 40B Sump, CS180 BM Skimmer, ATI 4x80 watt, eheim 1262, custom wrap around rock wall, ReefKeeper Elite 120g in-wall, 40B Sump, PC 54wx4, Jabao DC-6000 (full siphon), future seahorse t Current Tank Info: 125g, 120g, 2x40b sumps, ATI 4x80 T5HO

05/15/2013, 07:16 AM	#18
reefkeep3r Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	I am glad to see we have a nice discussion going now. Fizz: I am letting her pick out fish and corals. I think I found a topic for a new thread. Sk8r: After reading all of your stickys and other thread contributions, I feel honored that you chimed in. I will have both sides with valves. I am looking into away of splitting the return. Has any body used one of the flow accelerators such as http://www.marinedepot.com/Ista_Vort...FIFTFB-vi.html They come in a 1" size so that would easily solve my problem. I want to give some explanation of what I wan't to do. The tank is a Coralife BC29. Initially I will be setting up without a sump but all plumbed tank side for it. As I can build more funds and start increasing the bioload, I want to add a fuge to the system in the stand. Given the size of the stand it will be small. From what I gathered the flow rate in a fuge is highly debated but I think 300gph seems to be a good target. The reason I choose 1" plumbing is one day I would like a much bigger system and would like to be able to tie the cube into it in some function. The 1" I think should be able to handle what ever the future holds and make is completely silent now.