What makes the Airstar and Red Dragon so great? - Page 2

slief · 06/13/2013, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernie lyons

However ,typical german car (red dragon) reliability is not their strong suit ! Perhaps if it were made in japan (lexus) that would be something brag about .

I guess you must have owned a few Red Dragons in your time then? My two Red Dragons have lasted longer than ANY other needle wheel pump I've had on a needle wheel skimmer and I've owned plenty of them.

Say what you will but I'd contend that for the most part, those of us that have owned these pumps would argue otherwise and it sure as hell isn't because I paid so much. It's because they work well and do so reliably.

As for your analogy.. I've owned BMW's and Mercedes and in all honesty, I'm not overly impressed with their quality either. Mercedes in particular. While they may be built like tanks (my analogy) and are safe and solid, I can do without their electrical/electronic problems though my issues with BMW were far and few and I've owned 5 or 6 of them. I'll stick with my Corvettes and my other GM cars. They've been rock solid and as reliable as any cars I've owned and as reliable as my Red Dragon pumps!

FWIW. My analogy was regarding the solid feel comparing the door shutting to the weight and build quality of the Red Dragon. Maybe my analogy could have been better since reliability on some of those cars is questionable even based on my experience.

Drae · 06/13/2013, 08:39 PM

After starting this thread I looked at a red Dragon on you tube and I can honestly say that I'm impressed with what I see but man they're a grip of dough. A buddy of mine who replaced his ATb 840 v2 with a rlss r8 Let me take apart his mini airstar and its a nice pump ( yes I know it's a sicce) but for the most part it seems like they just replaced the venturi with their signature oversized front housing. Sicce needs to replicate something like that of their own that isn't a blatant copy. Maybe it's me being a Dad that has me reluctant to but all the most expensive equipment or maybe it's just me having pretty decent luck with companies like aquatic life, sicce, aquamaxx, and even koralia (I will be buying tunze soon tho). I will admit that I do like the bubble king and ATb deluxe skimmers but damn they're expensive.

nikon187 · 06/13/2013, 09:38 PM

Arent all red dragon models less watts than there counter parts at the same spec level. supermarin 250 pulls 2000 - 4000 lph at 45w , my bubble blaster 5000 pulls 2400lph and 60w.

bernie lyons · 06/14/2013, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefer91

Yes, I have done that. Your analogy is horrible, IMO. It's just not relevant. i can think of stuff from anywhere in the world that is nice and stuff that isn't.

Full disclosure: P-car and Bmw owner and enthusiast lol.

Sorry that you are having trouble understanding...can't help you I'm afraid !

bernie lyons · 06/14/2013, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slief

I guess you must have owned a few Red Dragons in your time then? My two Red Dragons have lasted longer than ANY other needle wheel pump I've had on a needle wheel skimmer and I've owned plenty of them.

Say what you will but I'd contend that for the most part, those of us that have owned these pumps would argue otherwise and it sure as hell isn't because I paid so much. It's because they work well and do so reliably.

As for your analogy.. I've owned BMW's and Mercedes and in all honesty, I'm not overly impressed with their quality either. Mercedes in particular. While they may be built like tanks (my analogy) and are safe and solid, I can do without their electrical/electronic problems though my issues with BMW were far and few and I've owned 5 or 6 of them. I'll stick with my Corvettes and my other GM cars. They've been rock solid and as reliable as any cars I've owned and as reliable as my Red Dragon pumps!

FWIW. My analogy was regarding the solid feel comparing the door shutting to the weight and build quality of the Red Dragon. Maybe my analogy could have been better since reliability on some of those cars is questionable even based on my experience.

Well , unfortunetaly I have talked to folks who have had failure issue's within a two year period with their RD pumps, so perhaps some pumps were "bad" apple's while others were fine...strange .
However I will certainly agree with you about some american cars being super reliable, I have owned a 2007 Z06 vette which was awesome but too much of a "race" car for me on typical roads . Needless to say I traded it on a 2009 CTS-V sedan fully loaded (recaro seats) and it was much more comfortable compared to the mighty Z06 but unfortunetaly not as relaible due to overwhelming amount of electronics in it. Mercedes is really my favorite of the cars out there in terms of styling and fit and finish , however as you pointed out reliability and huge cost of ownership detered my wife and I from buying one...shame really as I love the looks of the car.

Kattes · 06/14/2013, 03:48 AM

I have no trouble believing sicce has actually done something right with their newest generation of pumps, it was about time really, but to say they've always been great seems like a bit of a stretch. At least in my neck of the woods sicce has been synanymous with sub par trash for decades, so they do need one decade worth of aquarium hobbyist having good experiences to turn that image ship around. And honestly, it's looking good so far. One thing the pump market definately needs is solid competition.

That said, I'd love to try one of their new products out, should one fall into my hands for a fair price and attached to a nicely designed piece of acrylic. And the red dragons seem to lose the fight for value from my viewpoint too.

skimmy · 06/14/2013, 01:21 PM

the pump im curious about is the this new "I-series" gridwheel impeller pump that ATI is using on their powercone...
3000 lph air injection at 35w DC controllable, and not just 6 step controllable like the waveline pumps,
but a potentiometer knob to make very fine adjustments, and a digital readout of actual airdraw through the air muffler...
that sounds just sick.

http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-s.../ATI-0303.html

James77 · 06/14/2013, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikon187

Arent all red dragon models less watts than there counter parts at the same spec level. supermarin 250 pulls 2000 - 4000 lph at 45w , my bubble blaster 5000 pulls 2400lph and 60w.

Have you tested that supermarin with a killawatt?

I know on my BK mini 160 I had, they stated 17 or 18 watts, but it was actually pulling about 28 IIRC.

Drae · 06/14/2013, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James77

Have you tested that supermarin with a killawatt?

I know on my BK mini 160 I had, they stated 17 or 18 watts, but it was actually pulling about 28 IIRC.

I know European gallons differ from ours, do watts differ also?

Drae · 06/14/2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skimmy

the pump im curious about is the this new "I-series" gridwheel impeller pump that ATI is using on their powercone...
3000 lph air injection at 35w DC controllable, and not just 6 step controllable like the waveline pumps,
but a potentiometer knob to make very fine adjustments, and a digital readout of actual airdraw through the air muffler...
that sounds just sick.

http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-s.../ATI-0303.html

I think the problem with the gridwheel is constant maintenance. The produce very fine bubbles but they clog easily.

karsseboom · 06/14/2013, 09:45 PM

here is a good video

http://youtu.be/kZH3sSdGrtI

ksed · 06/14/2013, 10:02 PM

I had a BK Supermarin 200 it was measured at 1950 L/H air with a dwyer meter and 54 watts on a P3 meter.

thelostrican · 06/15/2013, 09:42 AM

I think op that when they came out, the lower wattage was a selling factor, later people discovered that they were laguna pumps, and it was better!.
If you needed to change your pump on your skimmer all you needed was the block, and you could get it for 100 bucks...

Nowadays with the dc pumps I don't know if they truly have an advantage...

thelostrican · 06/15/2013, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drae

I think the problem with the gridwheel is constant maintenance. The produce very fine bubbles but they clog easily.

Yes great skimmer! But lots of maintenance, they did change the Venturi, but I think you still have to clean it often...

karsseboom · 06/15/2013, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thelostrican

I think op that when they came out, the lower wattage was a selling factor, later people discovered that they were laguna pumps, and it was better!.
If you needed to change your pump on your skimmer all you needed was the block, and you could get it for 100 bucks...

Nowadays with the dc pumps I don't know if they truly have an advantage...

I have owned a few nice skimmers and I don't think I have owned a better performing skimmer then the one with the red dragon pump. It performs pretty well.

thelostrican · 06/15/2013, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karsseboom

I have owned a few nice skimmers and I don't think I have owned a better performing skimmer then the one with the red dragon pump. It performs pretty well.

I couldn't agree more!!!! But the red dragon 1500 pump, is just a laguna 1500, you do need the volute and impeller, but for us that already have them is a win win...if your pump goes out you buy a laguna 1500...and good to go..I did it on my bk mini 200...

Drae · 06/15/2013, 11:12 AM

So the Laguna max flow is the cream of the crop when it comes to return pumps? My buddy uses a 1500 on his 3' cube tank and its so quiet it's ridiculous. I wonder if they know that other companies are cashing in on their pump just cause of an impeller and oversized volute?

karsseboom · 06/15/2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drae

So the Laguna max flow is the cream of the crop when it comes to return pumps? My buddy uses a 1500 on his 3' cube tank and its so quiet it's ridiculous. I wonder if they know that other companies are cashing in on their pump just cause of an impeller and oversized volute?

This is not new. Royal exclusive has been around for a long time now. Laguna pumps have been around a long time also. They are quiet similar in design and people sometimes use then if there red dragon pump goes out. I don't know if they perform the exact same but they seem to be decent.

Also I don't think the airstar pumps are on the same level as the royal exclusive pumps/skimmers.

gcarroll · 06/15/2013, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drae

I wonder if they know that other companies are cashing in on their pump just cause of an impeller and oversized volute?

Two they are aware of it. This is the reason they came out with the Fluval Sea sump pumps.
http://ca-en.hagen.com/Aquatic/Pumps/Circulation/14339

All they did was take the exhausting Laguna, ditch the cage and add a stand

06/13/2013, 09:38 PM	#28
nikon187 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 4,717	Arent all red dragon models less watts than there counter parts at the same spec level. supermarin 250 pulls 2000 - 4000 lph at 45w , my bubble blaster 5000 pulls 2400lph and 60w. __________________ ----------------- Current Tanks: New 210 custom 84 x 24 x 24, 60g sump, SWC 250 extreme with bubble blaster 5000, 2 vortech mp40, 2 vortech mp10, 12 T5, Water blaster 5000, warner marine bio pellets, 60g clownfish cube, red carpet anemone with a 25g sump,SRO octopus 1000sss, 250w radium, lumenarc large.

06/15/2013, 09:42 AM	#38
thelostrican I hate to post Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Borinquen Posts: 222	I think op that when they came out, the lower wattage was a selling factor, later people discovered that they were laguna pumps, and it was better!. If you needed to change your pump on your skimmer all you needed was the block, and you could get it for 100 bucks... Nowadays with the dc pumps I don't know if they truly have an advantage... __________________ Upgrading!!! 120 to 180.... Current Tank Info: 120 long tank...that looks like an investment bank....

06/13/2013, 08:39 PM	#27
Drae RAIDER NATION! Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: City of sin... Posts: 3,476	After starting this thread I looked at a red Dragon on you tube and I can honestly say that I'm impressed with what I see but man they're a grip of dough. A buddy of mine who replaced his ATb 840 v2 with a rlss r8 Let me take apart his mini airstar and its a nice pump ( yes I know it's a sicce) but for the most part it seems like they just replaced the venturi with their signature oversized front housing. Sicce needs to replicate something like that of their own that isn't a blatant copy. Maybe it's me being a Dad that has me reluctant to but all the most expensive equipment or maybe it's just me having pretty decent luck with companies like aquatic life, sicce, aquamaxx, and even koralia (I will be buying tunze soon tho). I will admit that I do like the bubble king and ATb deluxe skimmers but damn they're expensive.

06/14/2013, 03:48 AM	#31
Kattes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 28	I have no trouble believing sicce has actually done something right with their newest generation of pumps, it was about time really, but to say they've always been great seems like a bit of a stretch. At least in my neck of the woods sicce has been synanymous with sub par trash for decades, so they do need one decade worth of aquarium hobbyist having good experiences to turn that image ship around. And honestly, it's looking good so far. One thing the pump market definately needs is solid competition. That said, I'd love to try one of their new products out, should one fall into my hands for a fair price and attached to a nicely designed piece of acrylic. And the red dragons seem to lose the fight for value from my viewpoint too.

06/14/2013, 01:21 PM	#32
skimmy T3am Zissou Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Galactic Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 1,123	the pump im curious about is the this new "I-series" gridwheel impeller pump that ATI is using on their powercone... 3000 lph air injection at 35w DC controllable, and not just 6 step controllable like the waveline pumps, but a potentiometer knob to make very fine adjustments, and a digital readout of actual airdraw through the air muffler... that sounds just sick. http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-s.../ATI-0303.html

06/14/2013, 09:45 PM	#36
karsseboom Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 2,183	here is a good video http://youtu.be/kZH3sSdGrtI

06/14/2013, 10:02 PM	#37
ksed Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,867	I had a BK Supermarin 200 it was measured at 1950 L/H air with a dwyer meter and 54 watts on a P3 meter.

06/15/2013, 11:12 AM	#42
Drae RAIDER NATION! Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: City of sin... Posts: 3,476	So the Laguna max flow is the cream of the crop when it comes to return pumps? My buddy uses a 1500 on his 3' cube tank and its so quiet it's ridiculous. I wonder if they know that other companies are cashing in on their pump just cause of an impeller and oversized volute?