What return pump do I need?

Drews89 · 05/09/2013, 11:43 PM

Hey guys I'm working on a 180g glass tank with double overflow and using 1 1/4" stand pipe for drain now my ? Is what size pump should I use for return ?

Dsotto · 05/10/2013, 03:31 AM

Depends on what you are looking for in a pump. I run the little giant pump on my 90 and a water blaster 3000 on my 40 breeder. Both are great pumps but the giant is noisy and produces a lot of heat. The water blaster is awesome, quiet, but expensive. I'd do the water blaster 7000. There are also other factors in choosing a pump. Head height, submersible, external, if you are going to feed anything else with it (chiller U/V), space, placement? Hope this helps.

Drae · 05/10/2013, 07:48 AM

Look into Laguna for an exceptionally quiet well built pump.

Drews89 · 05/10/2013, 08:50 AM

well right now I'm running a via aqua 1800 on my 90G with H.O.B eshop 800 overflow box.. witch this pump is too small for my new 180G... and for the type im looking for mostly a submersible pump so i wont have to drill the sump... and for sump i will upgrade from a 30G to a 90G

needmore-reef · 05/10/2013, 11:23 AM

3 Questions to help with selection
-Flow Rate
-External or internal
-Budget

I've used a lot of different return pumps. Little giant 3&2, Gen X3, Pan World 40 external pumps, Rio 2100, Mag drive 5,7,9, Sicce 4.0 and Eheim 1260

External pumps are loud but if used with true union ball valves are very easy to maintain.

I really like my Eheim 1260 pump. currently its running on a two tank system about 210 total gallons.

Drews89 · 05/10/2013, 02:17 PM

1. flow rate im not sure what it'll be for going to the sump but i made 11/4" drain stand pipe..
2. i prefer internal for the fact that i dont want to go thru the hassle of drilling the tank
3. for budget im looking at around 75 to 100 bucks depending on what type of pump.

Quote:

Originally Posted by needmore-reef

3 Questions to help with selection
-Flow Rate
-External or internal
-Budget

I've used a lot of different return pumps. Little giant 3&2, Gen X3, Pan World 40 external pumps, Rio 2100, Mag drive 5,7,9, Sicce 4.0 and Eheim 1260

External pumps are loud but if used with true union ball valves are very easy to maintain.

I really like my Eheim 1260 pump. currently its running on a two tank system about 210 total gallons.

griseum · 05/10/2013, 02:43 PM

In a 180g tank, whether its FO/WLR or Reef, youre going to need a lot more flow than one 1 1/4" drain and even if you stay with just that drain, youre going to need more pump than 75-100 bucks can buy. New that is. If you look for used you might get something useful. But 100 bucks in my area's LFSs cant even get you a mag 5 barely. And after head loss in a 180 a Mag5 would give you like 350 gallons/hour and that means you are only turning the tank over 2 times an hour. If its a FO with some heavy hitters it's not going to be enough to process the Ammonia and Nitrite with your bio media IMO. Perhaps maybe if the entire 90 was filled with LR and a Heavy Duty Protein Skimmer that processed all of that water, maybe even more than once as it passes through. Im just shooting things out there.This is all just my opinion and My Philosophy in how I create the Life Support System.

I believe that your return pump is one of the most important pieces of equipment. Its the backbone of your Life Support just as much as your protein skimmer is. I might be old school in my thinking of nitrification, but I believe in the importance in FO tanks of precipitating NH3, NO2 into NO3 as quickly as possible because these are extremely foreign compounds to fish and inverts, and not to mention they are extremely toxic especially at marine PH levels. Now the newer way of thinking, and what I try to accomplish in my Shark/Ray system, is that nitrification is bad because you end up with nitrate. So implement a refugium. Now a refugium has been proven not to be a proper Nutrient Exporter unless you do it on a Grand Scale. This is also what Im experimenting with. Large tanks in line with the system that have tons of Low temperature light and about 20 sq. feet of macro algae growing. So there are also other denitrifying methods. Carbon dosing with liquids like vinegar, sugar water, vodka, etc... Then theres solid carbon dosing. Biopellets, they call this.

Wow, how did I end up over here LOL. Slightly of on a tangent to say the least. Sorry, not trying to sidetrack this thread. Just food for thought I guess.

Im not exactly sure what the flow rate on one 1 1/4" drain is anyway. But there is a drain/overflow calc on here as well as one for flow with all of your plumbing (vertical runs, horizontal runs, 90s, 45s, etc.), head loss and a limited list of pumps and their specs built into the calculator too.
Best of Luck!
-Gris

griseum · 05/10/2013, 03:05 PM

The flow rate calculator says 900 gallons per hour would need a 1.24" drain. So that's about as close to 1 1/4" drain. So you could move 900 gallons essentially through your tank every hour. That's a turnover of 5 times an hour. That's not that bad if you can get a pump that's will put out a little less than that per hour. I always try to shoot for a turnover of atleast ten times per hour. That would mean all you'd need is one more 1 1/4" drain. That'd give you 1800 gallons drained per hour and a turnover of just shy of 10 times/hr. More food for the brain.
G'Luck
-gris

Drews89 · 05/10/2013, 03:15 PM

oh i forgot to mention that the tank that im working on it has double overflow on each corner

Nemeziz_za · 05/10/2013, 03:22 PM

A return pump IS NOT for flow!

Your flow through the sump should enable your skimmer to process your tank volume twice in a day and your golden.

griseum · 05/10/2013, 04:39 PM

what? That is mis-information you are spreading right there. No offense.
Your skimmer should process the same amount of water that is flowing through your sump. And if youre return pump is rated for 1800 gallons per hour, then you should have a skimmer that can process roughly what that pump pushes after head loss, lets say 1500 gph. So youre skimmer should be processing your tank volume several times an HOUR. I don't believe TWICE a DAY. But that's just my opinion.

And I never said a return pump was for flow. Powerheads are for flow but youre return pump should serve some function of flow as well. That's why they sell Loc-Lines, Ocean Motions, etc. for return plumbing. So you can direct your return for flow purposes.

I don't like locking horns on here because someone ends up Moved On. So Im out of this one.

Nemeziz_za · 08/08/2013, 07:23 AM

@griseum
Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They Function by P.R. Escobal
Skimmer Design 101

Quote:
It was estimated by Escobal that some proteins take upwards of 2 minutes contact time with air to attach properly.
For optimum skimming using a counter current design (or actually any other design for that matter), the water in your tank should not flow through the skimmer any more than two times per day. For venturi's, downdraft's, and beckett's, this requirement is almost a virtual impossibility as the pumps need to pump the huge amounts of water to yield a sufficient quantity of air to skim. This may seem strange and even shocking to many people as they are used to the "Tim Taylor" - type skimmers (more power! Oh Oh OH OH oh!) that push huge volumes of water through a skimmer every hour. Many people believe that to skim more effectively and efficiently, you have to increase the water flow through their skimmer as the air bubbles will contact the air bubbles more times per hour. This is NOT the case. The water running through the skimmer is not the limiting factor when it comes to nutrient export. It's the amount of AIR that contacts each "drop" of water that is the limiting factor to how much a skimmer pulls out of the water column. Some organics require up to 2 full minutes of contact time with air bubbles in a skimmer before they are removed via foam fractioning. Thus the need for a slow water flow through the skimmer is crucial for proper design and function.
According to Escobal, the following chart should be used to determine the flow rate for water through the skimmer (assuming a 2x per day turnover rate):

wildman926 · 08/08/2013, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemeziz_za

A return pump IS NOT for flow!

Correct

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemeziz_za

Your flow through the sump should enable your skimmer to process your tank volume twice in a day and your golden.

Incorrect.

Your flow through your sump needs to be 3-5x the volume of the tank. You skimmer should be able to process that flow per hour.

Use other pumps for flow within the tank.

I hope you don't run your flow through your sump area only 2x a day. A lot has changed in 17 years since that book was written.

Nemeziz_za · 08/08/2013, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemeziz_za

A return pump IS NOT for flow!

Your flow through the sump should enable your skimmer to process your tank volume twice in a day and your golden.

Sorry the thread got detailed slightly, we were talking about the volume turnover in the skimmer. As it did become a topic.

The sump would need a higher turnover to deal with re skimmed water and other obvious considerations ect.

ca1ore · 08/08/2013, 09:20 PM

Sump flow through and DT flow are absolutely two different things. I ran a 180 for over a decade running 400 gallons per hour through my sump and it was more than enough. Just need enough to properly feed the skimmer and ensure unform temperature control between the sump and display. I have never heard any cogent argument for massive sump flow. Sve some electricity and use a smaller pump.

05/09/2013, 11:43 PM	#1
Drews89 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 139	What return pump do I need? Hey guys I'm working on a 180g glass tank with double overflow and using 1 1/4" stand pipe for drain now my ? Is what size pump should I use for return ?

05/10/2013, 03:31 AM	#2
Dsotto Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Sarasota, FL Posts: 133	Depends on what you are looking for in a pump. I run the little giant pump on my 90 and a water blaster 3000 on my 40 breeder. Both are great pumps but the giant is noisy and produces a lot of heat. The water blaster is awesome, quiet, but expensive. I'd do the water blaster 7000. There are also other factors in choosing a pump. Head height, submersible, external, if you are going to feed anything else with it (chiller U/V), space, placement? Hope this helps. __________________ Tankless for a little while

05/10/2013, 02:43 PM	#7
griseum Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 823	In a 180g tank, whether its FO/WLR or Reef, youre going to need a lot more flow than one 1 1/4" drain and even if you stay with just that drain, youre going to need more pump than 75-100 bucks can buy. New that is. If you look for used you might get something useful. But 100 bucks in my area's LFSs cant even get you a mag 5 barely. And after head loss in a 180 a Mag5 would give you like 350 gallons/hour and that means you are only turning the tank over 2 times an hour. If its a FO with some heavy hitters it's not going to be enough to process the Ammonia and Nitrite with your bio media IMO. Perhaps maybe if the entire 90 was filled with LR and a Heavy Duty Protein Skimmer that processed all of that water, maybe even more than once as it passes through. Im just shooting things out there.This is all just my opinion and My Philosophy in how I create the Life Support System. I believe that your return pump is one of the most important pieces of equipment. Its the backbone of your Life Support just as much as your protein skimmer is. I might be old school in my thinking of nitrification, but I believe in the importance in FO tanks of precipitating NH3, NO2 into NO3 as quickly as possible because these are extremely foreign compounds to fish and inverts, and not to mention they are extremely toxic especially at marine PH levels. Now the newer way of thinking, and what I try to accomplish in my Shark/Ray system, is that nitrification is bad because you end up with nitrate. So implement a refugium. Now a refugium has been proven not to be a proper Nutrient Exporter unless you do it on a Grand Scale. This is also what Im experimenting with. Large tanks in line with the system that have tons of Low temperature light and about 20 sq. feet of macro algae growing. So there are also other denitrifying methods. Carbon dosing with liquids like vinegar, sugar water, vodka, etc... Then theres solid carbon dosing. Biopellets, they call this. Wow, how did I end up over here LOL. Slightly of on a tangent to say the least. Sorry, not trying to sidetrack this thread. Just food for thought I guess. Im not exactly sure what the flow rate on one 1 1/4" drain is anyway. But there is a drain/overflow calc on here as well as one for flow with all of your plumbing (vertical runs, horizontal runs, 90s, 45s, etc.), head loss and a limited list of pumps and their specs built into the calculator too. Best of Luck! -Gris Last edited by griseum; 05/10/2013 at 02:59 PM.

05/10/2013, 07:48 AM	#3
Drae RAIDER NATION! Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: City of sin... Posts: 3,476	Look into Laguna for an exceptionally quiet well built pump.

05/10/2013, 08:50 AM	#4
Drews89 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 139	well right now I'm running a via aqua 1800 on my 90G with H.O.B eshop 800 overflow box.. witch this pump is too small for my new 180G... and for the type im looking for mostly a submersible pump so i wont have to drill the sump... and for sump i will upgrade from a 30G to a 90G

05/10/2013, 11:23 AM	#5
needmore-reef Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 425	3 Questions to help with selection -Flow Rate -External or internal -Budget I've used a lot of different return pumps. Little giant 3&2, Gen X3, Pan World 40 external pumps, Rio 2100, Mag drive 5,7,9, Sicce 4.0 and Eheim 1260 External pumps are loud but if used with true union ball valves are very easy to maintain. I really like my Eheim 1260 pump. currently its running on a two tank system about 210 total gallons.

05/10/2013, 03:05 PM	#8
griseum Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 823	The flow rate calculator says 900 gallons per hour would need a 1.24" drain. So that's about as close to 1 1/4" drain. So you could move 900 gallons essentially through your tank every hour. That's a turnover of 5 times an hour. That's not that bad if you can get a pump that's will put out a little less than that per hour. I always try to shoot for a turnover of atleast ten times per hour. That would mean all you'd need is one more 1 1/4" drain. That'd give you 1800 gallons drained per hour and a turnover of just shy of 10 times/hr. More food for the brain. G'Luck -gris

05/10/2013, 03:15 PM	#9
Drews89 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 139	oh i forgot to mention that the tank that im working on it has double overflow on each corner

05/10/2013, 03:22 PM	#10
Nemeziz_za Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 30	A return pump IS NOT for flow! Your flow through the sump should enable your skimmer to process your tank volume twice in a day and your golden.

05/10/2013, 04:39 PM	#11
griseum Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 823	what? That is mis-information you are spreading right there. No offense. Your skimmer should process the same amount of water that is flowing through your sump. And if youre return pump is rated for 1800 gallons per hour, then you should have a skimmer that can process roughly what that pump pushes after head loss, lets say 1500 gph. So youre skimmer should be processing your tank volume several times an HOUR. I don't believe TWICE a DAY. But that's just my opinion. And I never said a return pump was for flow. Powerheads are for flow but youre return pump should serve some function of flow as well. That's why they sell Loc-Lines, Ocean Motions, etc. for return plumbing. So you can direct your return for flow purposes. I don't like locking horns on here because someone ends up Moved On. So Im out of this one.

08/08/2013, 07:23 AM	#12
Nemeziz_za Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 30	@griseum Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They Function by P.R. Escobal Skimmer Design 101 Quote: It was estimated by Escobal that some proteins take upwards of 2 minutes contact time with air to attach properly. For optimum skimming using a counter current design (or actually any other design for that matter), the water in your tank should not flow through the skimmer any more than two times per day. For venturi's, downdraft's, and beckett's, this requirement is almost a virtual impossibility as the pumps need to pump the huge amounts of water to yield a sufficient quantity of air to skim. This may seem strange and even shocking to many people as they are used to the "Tim Taylor" - type skimmers (more power! Oh Oh OH OH oh!) that push huge volumes of water through a skimmer every hour. Many people believe that to skim more effectively and efficiently, you have to increase the water flow through their skimmer as the air bubbles will contact the air bubbles more times per hour. This is NOT the case. The water running through the skimmer is not the limiting factor when it comes to nutrient export. It's the amount of AIR that contacts each "drop" of water that is the limiting factor to how much a skimmer pulls out of the water column. Some organics require up to 2 full minutes of contact time with air bubbles in a skimmer before they are removed via foam fractioning. Thus the need for a slow water flow through the skimmer is crucial for proper design and function. According to Escobal, the following chart should be used to determine the flow rate for water through the skimmer (assuming a 2x per day turnover rate):

08/08/2013, 09:20 PM	#15
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	Sump flow through and DT flow are absolutely two different things. I ran a 180 for over a decade running 400 gallons per hour through my sump and it was more than enough. Just need enough to properly feed the skimmer and ensure unform temperature control between the sump and display. I have never heard any cogent argument for massive sump flow. Sve some electricity and use a smaller pump.