Which brand of wave making pump did you buy or planning to buy? - Page 2

sirreal63 · 04/18/2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Manufacturers of wave makers should take notice of this short term purchasing pattern or preference and not wait 6 to 9 months to take action. Continue to improve and innovate their products and offer them at the lowest possible pricing are the key to stay in the market and competition. This will be a win-win for all of us.

Companies have no incentive to release improvements or develop new products. Without patent protection there is no incentive at all to develop new products. If you invested a large sum of money to bring something to market, paid your engineers, designers and sales and marketing people and knew that some knock off shop would reverse engineer it and sell it for a fraction of what it cost you to develop and bring to market that product, would you want to continue to develop new products? Without an incentive for innovation, innovation does not happen. While Jebao has not single handedly brought down a world economy, they and the people who support their practices are part of the problem, not the solution. If the companies that bring that innovation to the products we use decide not to, then it is not a win/win, it is a loss for everyone, even the dupe shops because they will not have new innovative products to copy. There is an old saying, "Think Globally, Act Locally".

ksed · 04/18/2013, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirreal63

companies have no incentive to release improvements or develop new products. Without patent protection there is no incentive at all to develop new products. If you invested a large sum of money to bring something to market, paid your engineers, designers and sales and marketing people and knew that some knock off shop would reverse engineer it and sell it for a fraction of what it cost you to develop and bring to market that product, would you want to continue to develop new products? Without an incentive for innovation, innovation does not happen. While jebao has not single handedly brought down a world economy, they and the people who support their practices are part of the problem, not the solution. If the companies that bring that innovation to the products we use decide not to, then it is not a win/win, it is a loss for everyone, even the dupe shops because they will not have new innovative products to copy. There is an old saying, "think globally, act locally".

+1

SimonSKL · 04/18/2013, 09:10 AM

Point taken. Please, this post is not about arguing who or what is right or wrong, just presenting purchasing decisions people made or will make.

Tickyty · 04/18/2013, 09:19 AM

Take it from an engineer, The Chinese are only doing what we in America pioneered. EVERY company is trying to push the envelope as close as they can to duplicate what someone else has. The Chinese don't hide what they are doing but don't sit on your high horse and think they are the only ones doing it. Why do we purchase competitive samples and tear them down, you got it so we can copy their designs and change them just enough to avoid a law suit. Some companies do it blatantly and pay the fines because the up side is so great. I have personally seen this across various industries. This is standard practice.

Don't be NAIVE.

sirreal63 · 04/18/2013, 09:27 AM

I hope there is no arguement, because it is a fact. I have only been in business since the early 80's so I don't know everything, but after a long and fruitful career of helping companies bring new products to the building materials market, I have an understanding of how it works. People like to say that Tunze and Ecotech have been overcharging and ripping them off. The reality is they have spent the money to bring something to market and made a profit. That profit then goes into research and development to improve an existing product and bring new products into the marketplace. This is called growth and it is a good thing, it means new jobs and an increase in the standard of living. When small companies like Ecotech lose the incentive to do what they do, then who wins? As consumers we decide what happens with our purchases. If we choose wisely it benefits us in the long run, if we choose poorly the ramifications are far reaching.

This poll clearly shows what the problem is. I will not fault someone for buying this product because most have no idea what the long term ramifications are. Hopefully at some point people think about what they are buying and what they are doing with their dollars. There are plenty of products out there for a small budget that do not impose the same ramifications as buying a duped product from a place that doesn't care about anything other than taking money.

I'll get off my soapbox, it would be easy to say I am old and the long term ramifications won't effect me, but I have children who will have to deal with it and I actually care about what happens in the world.

jonnyeatworld · 04/18/2013, 09:28 AM

Waiting for the WP-25!

Philly guy · 04/18/2013, 10:23 AM

Take it from an engineer, The Chinese are only doing what we in America pioneered. EVERY company is trying to push the envelope as close as they can to duplicate what someone else has. The Chinese don't hide what they are doing but don't sit on your high horse and think they are the only ones doing it. Why do we purchase competitive samples and tear them down, you got it so we can copy their designs and change them just enough to avoid a law suit. Some companies do it blatantly and pay the fines because the up side is so great. I have personally seen this across various industries. This is standard practice.

Don't be NAIVE.

+1

Tickyty · 04/18/2013, 10:42 AM

No arguement here. The American nature is to buy the least expensive item that they can find and that is why WallyWorld is #1. I try not to shop there but I digress. We are a nation of consumers and the jobs of the future are no longer tied to manufacturing goods. That was put into place in the 80's. The majority of people in this hobby can not afford top of the line items, innovation would have been trying to bring a product to the masses that performed nice and was affordable to the everyday hobbyist, meaning us without deep pockets. Take Apex for example they have entry level items to go along with their top end things. Don't poo poo on others and accuse them of ruining our childrens future because they made a cost benefit analysis of how to get the most out of their hard earned dollar.

Simon sorry for hijacking your thread I will end it here.

SimonSKL · 04/18/2013, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tickyty

Simon sorry for hijacking your thread I will end it here.

Thanks! I am sure this debate will continue somewhere else.

joedc · 04/18/2013, 11:04 AM

Ecotech mp10 got it for a Solana now I got a 40 br still makes waves does make some noise even though I pull the wet side apart weekly and clean it out

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

Promazine · 04/18/2013, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirreal63

People like to say that Tunze and Ecotech have been overcharging and ripping them off. The reality is they have spent the money to bring something to market and made a profit. That profit then goes into research and development to improve an existing product and bring new products into the marketplace.

where is the research and development? If I'm not mistaken, ecotech have done nothing to address the noise issues and wet side failures plagueing their product? Ive seen it mentioned by ecotech resellers that it's consumer set up error ( mis-alignment ) that is the cause of it. If that's the case, surely better instructions and maybe a template of some sort to improve customers chances of fitting it correctly should be first on the list of things to "research and develope" with all that profit they have been raking in. It seems to me, that they are quite happy with the failure rates of their product - you can't buy spares from anyone else after all

Anyway, as for the poll - I'm waiting for the WP25s to be released

reeftivo · 04/18/2013, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Promazine

where is the research and development? If I'm not mistaken, ecotech have done nothing to address the noise issues and wet side failures plagueing their product? Ive seen it mentioned by ecotech resellers that it's consumer set up error ( mis-alignment ) that is the cause of it. If that's the case, surely better instructions and maybe a template of some sort to improve customers chances of fitting it correctly should be first on the list of things to "research and develope" with all that profit they have been raking in. It seems to me, that they are quite happy with the failure rates of their product - you can't buy spares from anyone else after all

Anyway, as for the poll - I'm waiting for the WP25s to be released

I'm sure ecotech has made up their R&D costs and are sitting on a pile of cash by now. I love their pumps but three wet sides (2 MP20 and 1 MP10) later and a failing motor block will send me right over to the dark side.

FWIW;1 of my issues with the MPs was from user error. The others were swollen magnets and a broken shaft on the 10.

atreis · 04/18/2013, 05:43 PM

I have both 2 ecotech mp10s and 4 controllable koralias. I like the low profile of the mp10s in the tank but have ended up leaving them running constant at their minimum setting purely for their battery backup. They've been reliable for me, but the noise they make outside the tank is enough to cause complaints in my household if I have them vary speed or run above about 30%.

I have the koralias running on a setting where they each in turn start ramping up and when one is part way up the next starts, etc... until they're all at maximum, then they repeat the same thing ramping down to minimum. They do this once every 30 seconds. (I have the digital controller that has more options and handles 4 pumps.) The koralias run like they should, are reliable, and totally silent.

shanebc21 · 06/28/2013, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdfrogman

I just bought Hydor evolution 1400's no less than 2 weeks ago, for my 120
(down graded from a 450 to a 60 and now to a 120, don't ask LOL)

they are not controllable, rattle for a good second+ on start up so loud that my fish jump and dart for cover!
I contacted hydor and was told they click, can you say great customer service and communication? NOT!

I am putting my order in for a Jebao next week once I get paid

I refuse to pay the ridiculous price of a vortech and I think people who pay almost retail for a used vortech are nuts!

Same pump, same problems. Going with Jebao(wp40) as well!!

toky916 · 06/28/2013, 02:09 AM

Got two wp25 and boy I can't be more satisfied had hydor seemed weak.
Got them in the mail solid pump strong magnet good flow. And quite I really have to put my ear to the pump to get an idea of how it's ramping up and down.

I was going to get the MP 10 but after going to the store and asking about the Ecotech and he showed me how to play with it and it was kinda loud at the LFS and fish stores are kinda loud I saw paying so much for a pump and having noise N wet side problems.

RazorRC · 06/28/2013, 06:44 AM

2 MP40's otw.

3dpilot · 08/13/2013, 12:38 AM

Wp 40! I just won't spend $500 on a power head. Period!

View Poll Results: Which brand of wave making pumps did you buy or planning to buy?
Vortech/Ecotech	44	26.35%
Tunze	32	19.16%
Hydor/Koralia	5	2.99%
Jebao/Jebo	82	49.10%
Others	4	2.40%
Voters: 167. You may not vote on this poll

04/18/2013, 09:10 AM	#28
SimonSKL Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Danville, IL Posts: 1,918	Point taken. Please, this post is not about arguing who or what is right or wrong, just presenting purchasing decisions people made or will make. __________________ Simon Mixed LPS and SPS corals Camera - Canon T2i with EF100mm 2.8f USM macro lens Current Tank Info: AG 92g corner tank and Marineland 125g, RKE controllers, Maxspect and Eshine LEDs, MP40WES, Jebo WP40 & WP25

04/18/2013, 09:27 AM	#30
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	I hope there is no arguement, because it is a fact. I have only been in business since the early 80's so I don't know everything, but after a long and fruitful career of helping companies bring new products to the building materials market, I have an understanding of how it works. People like to say that Tunze and Ecotech have been overcharging and ripping them off. The reality is they have spent the money to bring something to market and made a profit. That profit then goes into research and development to improve an existing product and bring new products into the marketplace. This is called growth and it is a good thing, it means new jobs and an increase in the standard of living. When small companies like Ecotech lose the incentive to do what they do, then who wins? As consumers we decide what happens with our purchases. If we choose wisely it benefits us in the long run, if we choose poorly the ramifications are far reaching. This poll clearly shows what the problem is. I will not fault someone for buying this product because most have no idea what the long term ramifications are. Hopefully at some point people think about what they are buying and what they are doing with their dollars. There are plenty of products out there for a small budget that do not impose the same ramifications as buying a duped product from a place that doesn't care about anything other than taking money. I'll get off my soapbox, it would be easy to say I am old and the long term ramifications won't effect me, but I have children who will have to deal with it and I actually care about what happens in the world. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

04/18/2013, 05:43 PM	#38
atreis Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yellow Springs, OH Posts: 942	I have both 2 ecotech mp10s and 4 controllable koralias. I like the low profile of the mp10s in the tank but have ended up leaving them running constant at their minimum setting purely for their battery backup. They've been reliable for me, but the noise they make outside the tank is enough to cause complaints in my household if I have them vary speed or run above about 30%. I have the koralias running on a setting where they each in turn start ramping up and when one is part way up the next starts, etc... until they're all at maximum, then they repeat the same thing ramping down to minimum. They do this once every 30 seconds. (I have the digital controller that has more options and handles 4 pumps.) The koralias run like they should, are reliable, and totally silent. __________________ reef tank up since 8/2009. Previous tank up since 4/2004, taken down in 2007. Current Tank Info: custom 100g reef, custom sump

06/28/2013, 06:44 AM	#41
RazorRC Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Canada Posts: 36	2 MP40's otw. __________________ 180g reef w 90g sump 3 - EcoTech Radion XR30w G2, 2 - MP40w ES Vertex Alpha 250 & Puratek 100 RO/DI Speedwave DC-2640 return, 3 - Fluval E300 heaters

04/18/2013, 09:19 AM	#29
Tickyty Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cedar Rapids IA Posts: 125	Take it from an engineer, The Chinese are only doing what we in America pioneered. EVERY company is trying to push the envelope as close as they can to duplicate what someone else has. The Chinese don't hide what they are doing but don't sit on your high horse and think they are the only ones doing it. Why do we purchase competitive samples and tear them down, you got it so we can copy their designs and change them just enough to avoid a law suit. Some companies do it blatantly and pay the fines because the up side is so great. I have personally seen this across various industries. This is standard practice. Don't be NAIVE.

04/18/2013, 09:28 AM	#31
jonnyeatworld Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 144	Waiting for the WP-25!

04/18/2013, 10:23 AM	#32
Philly guy Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Lauderhill FL Posts: 119	Take it from an engineer, The Chinese are only doing what we in America pioneered. EVERY company is trying to push the envelope as close as they can to duplicate what someone else has. The Chinese don't hide what they are doing but don't sit on your high horse and think they are the only ones doing it. Why do we purchase competitive samples and tear them down, you got it so we can copy their designs and change them just enough to avoid a law suit. Some companies do it blatantly and pay the fines because the up side is so great. I have personally seen this across various industries. This is standard practice. Don't be NAIVE. +1

04/18/2013, 10:42 AM	#33
Tickyty Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Cedar Rapids IA Posts: 125	No arguement here. The American nature is to buy the least expensive item that they can find and that is why WallyWorld is #1. I try not to shop there but I digress. We are a nation of consumers and the jobs of the future are no longer tied to manufacturing goods. That was put into place in the 80's. The majority of people in this hobby can not afford top of the line items, innovation would have been trying to bring a product to the masses that performed nice and was affordable to the everyday hobbyist, meaning us without deep pockets. Take Apex for example they have entry level items to go along with their top end things. Don't poo poo on others and accuse them of ruining our childrens future because they made a cost benefit analysis of how to get the most out of their hard earned dollar. Simon sorry for hijacking your thread I will end it here.

04/18/2013, 11:04 AM	#35
joedc Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 229	Ecotech mp10 got it for a Solana now I got a 40 br still makes waves does make some noise even though I pull the wet side apart weekly and clean it out Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

06/28/2013, 02:09 AM	#40
toky916 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Sacramento Posts: 1,794	Got two wp25 and boy I can't be more satisfied had hydor seemed weak. Got them in the mail solid pump strong magnet good flow. And quite I really have to put my ear to the pump to get an idea of how it's ramping up and down. I was going to get the MP 10 but after going to the store and asking about the Ecotech and he showed me how to play with it and it was kinda loud at the LFS and fish stores are kinda loud I saw paying so much for a pump and having noise N wet side problems.

08/13/2013, 12:38 AM	#42
3dpilot Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 90	Wp 40! I just won't spend $500 on a power head. Period!