Sump Questions

[timmykotanks]

Good evening all. I'm not new to fish keeping or salt water. I had a tank going some time ago but I was ill prepared and ended up hemorrhaging money trying to 'fix it'. The original tank was full of mistakes. Tap water, canister filters etc.

I'm getting everything together to try this again but I'm trying to be smarter this time. I have purchased an RO/DI unit. I grabbed what I hope is going to live up the the you tube hype in the form of a protein skimmer (Omega 150). I'm still in designing stages and I'm in no huge rush. I learned the last time around that rushing means more troubles than I can handle.

So to my question. I'm designing the sump at this point and I'm questioning if I really need to include a refugium. I have noticed in my research that a lot of tanks are employing bio-pellets etc to deal with what the 'stuff' I understood refugiums were built for.

Can I get some feedback on a 'proper' sump/filtering setup?

Thanks,

[Mark Bianco]

IMHO Unless you have a fairly large area for a refugium its a waste of time and money. The space most sumps have that are recommended for a tank size do not enough space left after you have a return and a skimmer section. With enough surface area with rock then a refugium is not needed. When I set up the 220gl I did have issues with high phosphates I just used a media reactor and GFO for about 3 months. The tank has been running for over year and a half without running GFO and since then never any more phosphates issues...

I am sure some will disagree with my post and they may have a refugium and that's what works for them. I have found out in this hobby what works for one does not necessarily work for another.

Mark

[fpv930]

I agree with Mark on the point that different setups work for different hobbyist.

I personally would not build a sump without a refugium. I am currently converting a 40g breeder to a sump with a refugium. The fuge will be 11.6 gallons of water volume. It should help in reducing nitrates and for micro organisms like trigger pods, copepods and amphipods.

Bio pellet reactors are used for nitrate control. Sometimes in conjunction with refugiums.

Whichever way you choose to build the sump will work. I don't believe there is any "wrong" way.

[JAnwyl]

Filtration: Protein skimmer, surface Skimmer and about 1 pd live rock per gallon is what I would recommend. Live rock is a filter. Unless you have room in your sump to mount a light and a area to grow pods and chaeto forget the refugium part. Not saying its bad just not necessary. Chaeto uses nutrients that algae uses. So if you have Chaeto you will usually have less algae. I've used tap and Ro/Di and there is a improvement with the Ro/Di water. I would say that to boost your filtration a refugium or algae scrubber would be the next things to add.

Lighting: I think 4 watts per gallon for lighting. I have 2x65Watt compact fluorescent over a 55 Gallon Tank and I can only support low light corals. That's about 2.3 watts per gallon

[timmykotanks]

I'll be using the glass from a 135 to build the sump. I plan on a 2x3x1.5 footprint. I also plan on having the ATO in the sump (23"x12"). To me that means not enough room for the refugium. I think all three of you have validated this so I thank you!

I do plan to have some rock down in the sump to add some filtration onto what I can fit in the display tank.

Mark's comments lead me to believe that if I can deal with the algae in the short term that the tank *should* level off in time. Does this mean that I should avoid purchasing reactors if possible? In my head I was assuming that if I didn't have a refugium then I would NEED reactors with bio-pellets, GFO, Carbon etc...

JAnwyl - I appreciate your thoughts on lighting. The display tank will be custom sized - 29 x 48 x 20. I was hoping that two Kessil A360w would handle this (understanding that the outer edges on the 29 side will not have good par). From what I've read the 'w' models are good for 24" diameter coverage. that leaves 2.5" that will not have notable par. I think I'm fine with that but I would appreciate others thoughts on this too.

[Mark Bianco]

Originally Posted by timmykotanks

Mark's comments lead me to believe that if I can deal with the algae in the short term that the tank *should* level off in time. Does this mean that I should avoid purchasing reactors if possible? In my head I was assuming that if I didn't have a refugium then I would NEED reactors with bio-pellets, GFO, Carbon etc... .

Not sure if my comments were taken correctly. So I will elaborate a little, One thing that needs to be understood is if there is a problem then you need to react. I will be the first to admit I rushed my tank when adding fish and corals and I truly believe that is what caused my phosphate issue. At that point I had to react and I went with a reactor with GFO. If you find yourself having a problem with algae find the cause an then take steps to fix it. Generally problems do not fix themselves. But yes if you take your time and with enough filtration (This includes rock and skimming) proper lighting and flow a reef tank will take care of itself. Of course you need to do water changes to replace the elements used..

As for your lighting choice I have heard many good things about the 360W Kensils I had one Kensil it was a 150 14K and was not happy with the spread or color, but that was 2 and half years ago And I am sure they have improved. Me I am an Aqua illuminations guy. Two of the new 52 on your tank would be kick but, but then again is just my opinion.

Mark

[timmykotanks]

I think we both have a little explaining to do LOL.. What I was also trying to say is that I don't necessarily need addition reactors etc. The rock/sand/skimmer, if I move slow enough to let the system establish and if I monitor levels etc, should be enough.

I appreciate you clarifying your point as well as the input on the lighting.

[jpitch]

Originally Posted by timmykotanks

Mark's comments lead me to believe that if I can deal with the algae in the short term that the tank *should* level off in time.

According to an article I just read, which is posted in my thread I started about cone skimmers possibly replacing traditional types, this statement is absolutely wrong. Over time, natural and mechanical filtration methods fall behind. Look up the thread in the equipment forum. That article leads one to believe that the protein skimmer is over hyped, especially with the new technology, by the commercial industry.

[bromdad]

I have had many different aquariums. and you should consider starting from scratch. Firstly, an aquarium with depth (front to back) is much better for aquascaping. Therefore unless there are space constraints, I would decrease
the height and increase the depth. A standard 120 gallon aquarium might be a less expensive and better choice and also has the advantage of being less expensive then a custom one as well as being able to easily reach the bottom. Before deciding on lighting, skimmers, filtration you should determine what type of corals you wish to stock. It is best, but not necessary to decide whether you want LPS, SPS or softies as they have different nutrient requirements for best growth. Please advise on how you want to proceed.

[timmykotanks]

I should have better identified the dimensions. The tank is 48" right to left, 29" front to back and 20" tall.



and here is the sump as I have it so far.



profile:



from left to right front (closest) to back:
First is the incoming line which will flow up and into 2 x 4x14" socks. That will drain into the skimmer section. behind the skimmer and incoming is the ATO section. the remainder of the sump will be return.

The incoming section is meant to try and keep the noise down. Will the socks be loud draining into the skimmer section?

as far as stocking. I'm not 100% yet. I definitely will be making this a coral first fish accent tank if that makes sense. I'm still learning on what is what between LPS and SPS. I believe that I want to go SPS.

[jpitch]

Originally Posted by bromdad

I have had many different aquariums. and you should consider starting from scratch. Firstly, an aquarium with depth (front to back) is much better for aquascaping. Therefore unless there are space constraints, I would decrease
the height and increase the depth. A standard 120 gallon aquarium might be a less expensive and better choice and also has the advantage of being less expensive then a custom one as well as being able to easily reach the bottom. Before deciding on lighting, skimmers, filtration you should determine what type of corals you wish to stock. It is best, but not necessary to decide whether you want LPS, SPS or softies as they have different nutrient requirements for best growth. Please advise on how you want to proceed.

I 100% agree with this statement. However, I believe his girlfriend already bought him the 55g. I would be looking all over craiglist for a lot of the stuff he wants since he doesn't need anything of very high quality at this stage of his madness, I mean sickness, I mean addiction, I mean love for this hobby.

[timmykotanks]

Jpitch, appreciate all opinions but HUH?? I don't have a 55 or a girlfriend.. My wife would approve if neither lol

[jpitch]

LOL I was reading 2 different posts and posted on the wrong 1, sorry! 8)

[timmykotanks]

I figured ... just having some fun... and I know the post you're referring to also... following it here and there

[BenBradford]

If I was designing a sump, I would make room for the skimmer, the return pump, I usually like some kind of baffle to prevent bubbles back into the tank, a mechanical media of some kind like a sponge to catch the big stuff, and even a sand bed and rock in the sump if I have the space..

[timmykotanks]

So I'm getting that the sump as I have it is "OK"... That's great and I appreciate the feedback. I thought I'd throw up one other sketch as I had a thought last night.



I am planning a center overflow so why not put the ATO on the RO FW side and put the intake into the sump in the center underneath the overflow. Therefore I can eliminate any elbows and have a straight shot. that *should* allow more flow.

comments??

[MidwesternTexan]

That's funny,

'cause keeping my chaeto mass very large in my sump =
- way less algae on the wall of the sump
- less in the DT
- cleaner substate in the DT
- corals kicking butt
- It makes money, credit at the lfs, trades
- Is easy and cheap to light with clamp on cone reflectors and CFL bulbs
- etc.

Once I gave so much away, and traded to my lfs that my DT suffered for weeks until it replenished itself.

Obviously, I don't agree with most here then

All my LR is in the DT,
I run a skimmer, and big chaeto- that's it in the sump, no SB's, etc.
I do have really good flow in my DT too

[timmykotanks]

I guess it might come down to definitions then. To me a refugium is a low(er) flow section of the sump that has a sand bed, chaeto, maybe some rubble etc.

I can't see why I couldn't put chaeto in with the skimmer section as there is more than enough room there.

[btucker7587]

Just my two cents....I do run a refugium but it is all live rock. I put about 1" of sand into it for the critters I transfer from the display tank down, but that was it. I ran the tank without a sump for about a month and I definitely saw a difference in water quality and evaporation time which caused more frequent testing and water changes.

I like your design. I wish i could have custom built mine but the plexi is so expensive here. I took a 40 gal tank and put in the baffles for my sump. (Have a 10g refugium area and the plexi ran ove $100 for the baffles!)

Timmy, what program you using to draw your diagrams?

[timmykotanks]

Tucker, are you saying that adding the sump increased the evaporation? That makes sense to me I think.

The program I'm using is called Sketchup. Its a free program here in Canada. I don't think that it would cost you in Japan either but I'm not sure.

[btucker7587]

Originally Posted by timmykotanks

Tucker, are you saying that adding the sump increased the evaporation? That makes sense to me I think.

The program I'm using is called Sketchup. Its a free program here in Canada. I don't think that it would cost you in Japan either but I'm not sure.

Yea. with the water flow from top to bottom and the added flow through the sump, the evap was increased which calls for more RO/DI but better than a 20% exchange every week. (I am doing a 25% a week with my current tank but that is because of an experiment i am conducting)

Looking up the proggie...I have been looking for something to at least get ideas into drawings...and I suck at drawing.

[timmykotanks]

Pm me if you want some basic help with it.. I'm no expert but I do ok with it