Why do my new fish keep dying???

[Patrick4426]

Hey everybody!

I'm still relatively new to saltwater tanks... I started with a 29 gallon tank in June 2013 and I was able to successfully keep several fish and corals. This prompted me to upgrade to a 75 gallon drilled tank with a 38 gallon sump that I scored off craigslist (I have always heard a larger tank is more stable &, thus, easier). I transferred everything and only lost one fish in the move (I had 9 fish at the time). I upgraded my lighting to two 155w full spectrum LED fixtures and I have four Koralia powerheads on a wave controller. There is approximately 90 lbs of live rock in the DT arranged with plenty of caves & probably 25 lbs more in the sump. The DT has aprox 3" sand and the sump has a DSB. The sump has a Vertex Omega 130 skimmer & I'm running two reactors with biopellets & Rowaphos. I have had a decent GHA outbreak but I can tell it's getting less.

For the last month, every new fish I've bought has died within a week. I've had two LFS check my water parameters & said they were good.

My remaining stock includes: red firefish, purple firefish, six line wrasse, melanarus wrasse, yasha goby, hi fin goby, flame angel, fiji blue devil damsel, starry blenny, yellow tang. (I wish I hadn't bought the six line & damsel as they are somewhat mean but whatever...). There is also a pistol shrimp paired with the Yasha goby, a peppermint shrimp, a fire shrimp, & a skunk shrimp as well.

I'm in the process of setting up a 29g quarantine tank for any new fish I buy to stay in for 3-4 weeks before going into the DT (I know I should have done this from the start). It's weird how the fish have died as they have all seemed fine for 3-4 days, swim in the open, & eat well before a rapid decline & death. What could be causing this?? Some of the fish that have died had ick but not all of them. There has been no horrible aggression involved with the deaths (at least that I've seen) and no injuries. What's more troubling is that I had my two oscellaris clownfish die in the last few days & I've had them for 6 mos or so. I also had a Midas blenny that I bought several months ago die a week back. I'm getting very frustrated & almost want to quit...

[snorvich]

If you have had fish with ich in your tank, your tank has ich. Please read the stickies in the Fish Diseases forum.

[M.phenax]

You have ich in your tank. You might also have marine velvet and flukes. Please don't add anymore fish. Your display needs to go fallow for 12 weeks, and the remaining fish need to be treated in a quarantine tank.
Don't give up. This is just a very painful learning curve (especially for your fish). I have had a similar problem in one of my quarantine tanks, and it about drove me crazy trying to figure out where the disease came from.

[Patrick4426]

I know my tank has ick. I also know that most tanks have ick but if the fish are healthy they fight it off. I supplement all the fish food with garlic extract because of the ick. I have no desire to do a complete tank teardown...

[Patrick4426]

Oh yeah, I did treat my tank with Prazipro a few weeks back to try to kill any flukes. I know prazipro doesnt treat ick but I know it kills other parasites...
Are there no other alternatives to tearing down my tank and quarantining my livestock?

[bundybear1981]

You won't need to tear the tank down. Just need to set up a QT and leave the main tank fallow (fish-free) for at least 12 weeks (the life span of ich) Please read the stickies - they will go in to more details for you.

[Patrick4426]

So I should put all my fish in my 29 gallon QT, treat them for ick, & leave the tank fallow for 12 weeks? In the QT tank, I shouldn't have any live rock so I'm gonna have to do a bunch of water changes, correct?

[FTDelta]

3-4 weeks in QT is not long enough. 6-12 weeks is typically the norm for fish to stay in QT.

[tmz]

Is this a fish only tank?

[Patrick4426]

When seeing up my QT, I should only have it bare bottom with only pvc parts for fish to hide in, correct? I have an Aquaclear 70 HOB filter for my QT & I threw a forced air sponge filter into my sump this morning to seed with bacteria for my QT. It should take 2 weeks to seed with bacteria, correct? The HOB filter and sponge filter should be sufficient for my QT or should I throw a powerhead in there as well? Should I test the water parameters daily or every other day once I put my fish into QT? I plan to put a seachem ammonia alert in the tank so I can ensure ammonia doesnt get crazy. Any idea on how much/many water changes I should do while my fish are in QT?

[Patrick4426]

I apologize. I didn't mention that the tank has mixed coral types as well.

[tmz]

Ok. then you can't treat the tank and need to leave it fishless for 72 days or longer.

Use some filter material or sponge from your tank or filter to provide some biofiltration in the qt for starters if you have it . Monitor ammonia closely after you put fish in it. You can get a ton of help on the fish disease forum for more detail.

[Sk8r]

Don't treat a functioning tank. Corals and inverts can't get ich. Fish, however, can have a 'silent' case in their gills.

If your corals are functioning, probably it is a fish-specific ailment, like the ich parasite. And if you can leave the tank fishless 8-12 weeks, it will die out in the main tank through starvation, and your fish once treated will be clean of it in the qt, so you can start again. I'd also change where you get your fish: they're coming in with it, or at least one did, and infested the tank so the rest now get it.

It's fairly minor stuff, if you buy from clean sources and watch your water quality. New tanks are subject to water-incidents, and that helps it take hold. Keeping your fishes' slime coat healthy by having absolutely stable salinity and alkalinity is key to that. Some preparations like Prime can help.

[slgcmg]

Just curious. How is your current livestock? Reason I ask is I know that my tank has ich as well but I've basically made the decision to not add more fish. All my current live stock is doing really good.

If all your current fish are completely healthy, active, and eating I personally wouldn't try and take them all out and cram them into a 29 gallon for 8 weeks. You've got a good size livestock there. A yellow tang in a 29 gallon with 8 or so other fish just seems like its worse.

I am greatly out numbered here, I know. Just wanted to provide a different perspective. Your current stock may have already built an immune to the parasite. If it were me, I would just stop adding fish for at least 3 months.


Best of luck to you. And stick with it.

[tmz]

Outnumbered yes, by the life cylce of the parasite. That is wishful thinking ,ime,not r.I agree a larger area a for a long qt stay is advisable.


It takes a year more likely two for a single strain of ich relying only on asexual reproducution to expire in a tank with fish in it, if we are lucky ;not 3 months. The most opptomistic time frame I've ever seen is 11months ;it took 2 years in my tank.Where does 3 months come from?
New fish may introduce a new strain and won't have an immunity to what's in there already. Fish that survive an infestation develop a partial sometimes temporary immunity to the particular strain to which they were exposed. The parasite still feeds on them in lower numbers in the softer tissues of the nostrils mouth and gills and is often unseen. The cysts produced by this smaller number of parasites can multiply several hundred fold per generation,rougly every two weeks . New fish have no previous exposure to the stain and no immunity and are often attacked sparking an overwhelming outbreak.

[Bd670]

I am as green as it gets but that sounds like way to many fish for a 75. 10 fish in a 75? maybe someone else with more experience can chime in

[Maxxumless]

Originally Posted by FTDelta

3-4 weeks in QT is not long enough. 6-12 weeks is typically the norm for fish to stay in QT.

Actually, the norm is 2-4 weeks and 4-12 (or longer) in hospital tanks for treatment. 99% of fish diseases, pests, & predators will show themselves (if you look carefully) within a week or two. If they show signs of infection the QT can become a treatment tank. Hyposalinity in a fish QT combined with other medications can be used, but I feel most medications would stress fish even more and may deteriorate them to the point of infection or sickness, the very thing we are trying to prevent. I also highly advise people to buy from places that already have QT their animals, dip their corals, and treat their tanks regularly. One good example is Liveaquaria (and Diver's Den) which QT from 2-4 weeks and longer for animals that come from regions of the world where particular sickness/parasites are known to thrive.

[slgcmg]

Originally Posted by Bd670

I am as green as it gets but that sounds like way to many fish for a 75. 10 fish in a 75? maybe someone else with more experience can chime in

With what he's got, he could make it work so long as his system is stable.. Definitely would try and remove the damsel sometime down the road if possible.

My post earlier was based on my experience with battling ich, not an opinion.


(This part is my opinion) I am just not a believer in removing all fish from a system. Adding stress to an already weakened fish not to mention the shock on your bio system from removing everything at once..

[MSreefdoc]

Ok so I am getting a little confused with so many opinions on the quarantine techniques. If his problem is ich, why would his display need to stay fish free for 12 weeks if the tomont cyst stage lasts from 3-28 days? If what I am understanding is correct, then from the moment the trophont stage falls off the fish, it will become hatched tomites in less than 30 days, then die after 24 hours with no host.
Also why quarantine the fish for 6 weeks and not just put them in one QT tank for 2 days, then a second OT tank for 2 days, then back to the first OT tank(having been cleaned out and had new water put in of course) for 2 days, then lastly back to the second QT tank. That would be 8 days total. Since the trophonts stay on the fish for 3-7 days, this would seem to work just fine. I know I am all kinds of wrong, so please help me out here.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by MSreefdoc

Ok so I am getting a little confused with so many opinions on the quarantine techniques. If his problem is ich, why would his display need to stay fish free for 12 weeks if the tomont cyst stage lasts from 3-28 days? If what I am understanding is correct, then from the moment the trophont stage falls off the fish, it will become hatched tomites in less than 30 days, then die after 24 hours with no host.
Also why quarantine the fish for 6 weeks and not just put them in one QT tank for 2 days, then a second OT tank for 2 days, then back to the first OT tank(having been cleaned out and had new water put in of course) for 2 days, then lastly back to the second QT tank. That would be 8 days total. Since the trophonts stay on the fish for 3-7 days, this would seem to work just fine. I know I am all kinds of wrong, so please help me out here.

If you are really interested and wish to learn, read:

Cryptocaryon Irritans

Advanced Information

and for a discussion of tank transfer for eliminating ich (you were on the right track) see:

this.

The second one may be a bit more technical but is still useful.

[MSreefdoc]

Thanks snorvich, I was unaware that the cysts fall off in the dark. I have yet to be able to keep a hippo tang, I have tried 2 in 2 years. Both got ich and died. My other 5 fish must have the silent gill infection because I've had each of them 1-2 years. So i'm going to go through this transfer with all of my fish, then place them back in what should be an ich free system. I will then buy a hippo and put it through this transfer technique and cross my fingers. My kids loved Dori, #1 and #2. Hopefully the third Dori is a charm!

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by MSreefdoc

Thanks snorvich, I was unaware that the cysts fall off in the dark. I have yet to be able to keep a hippo tang, I have tried 2 in 2 years. Both got ich and died. My other 5 fish must have the silent gill infection because I've had each of them 1-2 years. So i'm going to go through this transfer with all of my fish, then place them back in what should be an ich free system. I will then buy a hippo and put it through this transfer technique and cross my fingers. My kids loved Dori, #1 and #2. Hopefully the third Dori is a charm!

Well, Dori, otherwise known as Paracanthus Hepatus is a fish that should only be kept in an 8 foot 240 gallon tank. They are highly active, and get about 15 inches when fully grown.

[MSreefdoc]

I have a 5 foot 120 gallon. And as I am a medical resident student, I will be moving in 2 &1/2 years and would sell my live stock rather than take it with me. At which point hopefully I will be able to buy and maintain such a large tank for a long term Dori. Surely it won't grow so large in that time span that I will be committing animal abuse right? please agree with me so I can feel better about this : )

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by MSreefdoc

I have a 5 foot 120 gallon. And as I am a medical resident student, I will be moving in 2 &1/2 years and would sell my live stock rather than take it with me. At which point hopefully I will be able to buy and maintain such a large tank for a long term Dori. Surely it won't grow so large in that time span that I will be committing animal abuse right? please agree with me so I can feel better about this : )

Assuming you start small, you will probably be ok. While it is difficult to predict growth rate since it depends on a lot of things, a five foot tank will probably keep the fish sustained for the time period you are talking about. The issue becomes when they get larger that they psychologically require more territory so tank length becomes a primary concern. Gallonage is by far less relevant than tank length. When you are able to implement your large tank, check back with me for some ideas. My personal tanks are all large.

[MSreefdoc]

Thanks again snorvich, will do.