Generators....Clean sine wave or "dirty power"

[ptreef]

Ok, so i am looking to purchase a geny to:

1. power my tank: pumps, apex, heaters, skimmer, light (mh & t-5 if needed)
2. sump pump
3. fridge /freezer
4. misc lights or TV (plasma)
5. furnace blower possibly if power out long enuf to need it.


All in all worst case to power all this I need about 3500w assuming all on.

Can I get pretty much any generator that is say 4000w continous plus or should I be looking for a special one.
Looks like i really want an "inverter generator" style?

-Home depot has the ramsond 4500(3000w) pure sinewave geny for $1200

-Briggs & stratton 6250w Home defender is supposedly true sine wave geny and $799

Harbor freight has their 7000w guy for $599. don't know if true sine wave?

The one listed as true sine wave can get pricey, but I don't want to fry my electronics too.

[Rybren]

I could be wrong, but my understanding of how a genny works is that they are all Sine Wave.

The Sine Wave/Modifed Square(Sine) Wave issue comes up with DC to AC inverters. With the inverters, the DC is electronically transformed to AC. If the Inverter has enough steps to closely mimic a sine wave with a THD of 3% or less, then it is considered a True/Pure Sine Wave.

Generators, on the other hand, produce AC in a sine wave right from the get go.

Most people regard Honda/Yamaha gennys very highly.

[ptreef]

so should i focus on THD than?

the inverter generators are like 3-5x's the cost

[fishgate]

Make sure to size you generator for what you need. Almost always people get one too big. generators use a lot of gas, no sense paying for unused power.

[Breadman03]

Originally Posted by ptreef

1. power my tank: pumps, apex, heaters, skimmer, light (mh & t-5 if needed)

Power for sensitive electronics==spend the $$ on the Yamaha or Honda. I went Yamaha EF2000is due to free shipping making it a better deal. It powers my entire tank, a few lights, TV, and can still run my fridge and freezer. I tried all of that at once to test the load capability, and run my fridge/freezer only once every 2-3 hours and unplug everything else during that time.

[mchammer]

All generators do not produce clean power (pure sine wave). A generator is good for emergency and power tools not electronics. I have a generator for the whole house and I use a Smart UPS backup for all my electronics. Those UPS backups condition the line and prevent brown outs and power spikes as well as convert the power to a pure sine wave. Some electronics are more sensitive to "dirty power" than others. Pumps and heaters are no problem with a generator but an Apex controller and TV or LED lights I wouldn't want to run them for any length of time without conditioning the power. Just my .02

[gcarroll]

You really don't need to be able to power the lights. The animals can go a good 3 days or more without lights. If there is an event that leaves your area is without power for more than 3 days you most likely will have run out of fuel by then.

I would also lean toward the honda and yamaha generators. Reliability is the most important thing to have in a generator. Wehn you need it, it needs to start!

[jrhaughey]

If you are powering electronics with a generator, you really should use a SMART UPS, key word "Smart" or Double conversion. As stated above, all generators produce dirty power, voltage and frequency are all over the place. Most Electronics will tolerate this for a short time, but why take the chance? At a minimum, use a power filter, not just a surge device.

A Smart, or double conversion UPS, takes the incoming power, converts it to DC, then back to AC to produce a clean power output.

[Reefvet]

Originally Posted by Rybren

I could be wrong, but my understanding of how a genny works is that they are all Sine Wave.

The Sine Wave/Modifed Square(Sine) Wave issue comes up with DC to AC inverters. With the inverters, the DC is electronically transformed to AC. If the Inverter has enough steps to closely mimic a sine wave with a THD of 3% or less, then it is considered a True/Pure Sine Wave.

Generators, on the other hand, produce AC in a sine wave right from the get go.

Most people regard Honda/Yamaha gennys very highly.

In fact you are wrong.

Standard, construction grade generators produce a stepped wave that will destroy anything that needs a clean sine wave. An Apex would be ruined in short order. Controllers for pumps, same story. Your microwave oven or computer won't run on one either.

Honda's i series have inverters, correcting the wave form to a true sinusoidal wave. Yamaha has there own series. I've owned both and they're excellent.
They're also much quieter and more efficient. The Honda I have now runs 4 hours before needing a refill.

And yes, a Smart UPS is the only APC to deliver a clean sine wave but they're pretty pricey for anything large enough to run a tank of any size.

[moondoggy4]

I saw a generator at Costco that has a similar size of the Honda 2000 model and it claims to have the correct sine, just under 600 I believe, I think it had the Yamaha engine.

[ptreef]

Originally Posted by moondoggy4

I saw a generator at Costco that has a similar size of the Honda 2000 model and it claims to have the correct sine, just under 600 I believe, I think it had the Yamaha engine.

I think costco carrier the champion 2000w guys. And yes they are the true sine wave ones.
They seem to be a great bang for the buck.

[Pokerman11]

Do you need 220V for anything? That is a dual phase generator. Most common will be a well pump for 220V. That' more important than sine wave. I'm in the computer business and run everything I own off a modified sine wave inverter in my camper. I don't think this is somthing you need to worry about when chosing your generator. For example your home laptop don't give a care. In fact your laptop is 12v and user it's power block to convert 120v down to 12v charging it's internal batt. Sine wave is one of those marketing items in modern generators, its really not that important - look at the other features

As others has brought up. Having enough GAS around to power the thing is important. Going smaller is better. You can cycle fridges/freezers - don't turn them all on at once. I just shut off my tank lights and hot tub (it draws 5K itself) watch what we turn on at once and all good.

For me I run three fridges, one freezer, heat (gas w/blower), lights and well pump on a 5K 7.5K peak unit.

I used to back feed it in threw my dryer plug, but now just bought some wire and feed it directly into my electric box on a dual 20A breaker.

IN the end most anythign will work.

[ptreef]

one more question.

i was originally looking to back feed subpanel via a L14-30R plug to a 40a 240v breaker from a traditional style generator. (yes i know the main grid back feed issue and would run with interlock UL approved switch) However most of the inverter generators only have 120v outlets. can u in essence wire one outlet to a 20a 120v breaker on one side of the panel and another separate outlet to a 20a 120v breaker to the other side of the panel? i think the furnace blower is on a 240v breaker.

this would save running extension cords all over

[chilwil84]

Originally Posted by Reefvet

In fact you are wrong.

Standard, construction grade generators produce a stepped wave that will destroy anything that needs a clean sine wave. An Apex would be ruined in short order. Controllers for pumps, same story. Your microwave oven or computer won't run on one either.

Honda's i series have inverters, correcting the wave form to a true sinusoidal wave. Yamaha has there own series. I've owned both and they're excellent.
They're also much quieter and more efficient. The Honda I have now runs 4 hours before needing a refill.

And yes, a Smart UPS is the only APC to deliver a clean sine wave but they're pretty pricey for anything large enough to run a tank of any size.

my basic briggs and stratton ran my hole house for a week after huricane sandy tvs(with full surround system), tanks, well, heat, refrigerators, etc with no issues.

for basic backup a non sin wave is all you need

[chilwil84]

Originally Posted by ptreef

one more question.

i was originally looking to back feed subpanel via a L14-30R plug to a 40a 240v breaker from a traditional style generator. (yes i know the main grid back feed issue and would run with interlock UL approved switch) However most of the inverter generators only have 120v outlets. can u in essence wire one outlet to a 20a 120v breaker on one side of the panel and another separate outlet to a 20a 120v breaker to the other side of the panel? i think the furnace blower is on a 240v breaker.

this would save running extension cords all over

i hardwire mine into my ac breaker (30 amp breaker)after huricane sandy and just turned off my main breaker and than just carefully ran what i needed. i know some people that backfed though a 20 amp circuit.

doesnt matter what side of the panel they are all conected to the same board

[ptreef]

Are u running 120v or 240v from ur geny to panel

[Pokerman11]

I’m by no means an expert in this but many cheep generators are capacitor controlled, vs better ones or modern ones that use solid state electronics to regulates voltage.

The capacitor issue is that they do a sucky job and allow voltage to surge. THIS is what gives electronics fits. Especially if you are running the generator overloaded and it stalls, you will fry electronics,. Or overrev and spike. A better generator electronics will just cut the power totally if the generators stalls, and prevents spikes. Differences in voltages is what destroys electronics. My engineer friend who designs generators told me once that sine wave is not important to electronics as you might think.

As far as your wiring question. If you generator only produces 120v yes you can wire it to both sides of your board – BUT you have to shut off all 240v equipment (like your well pump, furnace, A/C, stove )– basically turn off any double pole breaker and your main flip off.

In an emergency I’ve run suicide extension cords (a cord with two male ends) from the generator directly to a wall socket. Not that I suggest anyone else doing this. Just make sure the wire is strong enough gauge, and not overloading the breaker.

The L-14-30P plug is a 240V plug. Ground, Line1,Line2, Netural. If you generator uses this plug you bring in line1 to one side of the board and line2 to the other. I do that via a 30amp double pole breaker.

[ksed]

I the 5500watt unit. It runs well, but its load. You can hear it form a mile away.

Originally Posted by ptreef

I think costco carrier the champion 2000w guys. And yes they are the true sine wave ones.
They seem to be a great bang for the buck.

[Breadman03]

I should add that the Honda or Yamaha can run for 8 hours on a gallon of gas, which can be a very useful thing in a situation like Sandy. Gas stations near me, about 150 miles from NYC, were running out of gas because that's how far people were driving to fill up their generators.

[ken6217]

I bought a Honda 6500 watt inverter generator and had it hooked up to my panel. It runs the whole house except the A/C.

As mentioned above, the only issue is if has becomes scare as with Sandy.
Ken

[royvoss]

ran my entire house on a generac unit, pc,s, apex , even my kids x-box worked fine during sandy, ran about 2 weeks. may want to look at natural(mine ran on ng) gas over gasoline, if natural gas is available in your area, Some can even be run on propane, no need to chase gas a round.

[chilwil84]

Originally Posted by ptreef

Are u running 120v or 240v from ur geny to panel

my 30 amp twistlock on my geny is labled 120/240 volt ac. i am not an electrician but it runs my 220 well no problem along with everything else

[Triggercdog]

Originally Posted by Breadman03

Power for sensitive electronics==spend the $$ on the Yamaha or Honda. I went Yamaha EF2000is due to free shipping making it a better deal. It powers my entire tank, a few lights, TV, and can still run my fridge and freezer. I tried all of that at once to test the load capability, and run my fridge/freezer only once every 2-3 hours and unplug everything else during that time.

I agree....check out the Honda as well...the best money can buy...IMHO!!

[unitedbga]

Modified signware can smoke your electronics. Plus it will make your pumps run hotter.