Labout's Fairy Died after one night

Goofy393 · 03/03/2014, 11:38 AM

I am so upset that my new addition died sometime last night. I added a Labout's Wrasse who appeared to acclimate well through the process but I found him dead this morning and don't know why.

Here are my parameters:
110g
1.025 sg
Water very good
78 degrees

I acclimated for over an hour at which time I did water change before adding to DT. Turned off lights and slowly added some ambient light and fed tank, which he ate.

I only noticed a little harassment from a Yellow Chromis before going to bed. He did seem to be breathing a little heavy at that time but was swimming around all over the tank.

I have:

Salon and Exquisit wrasse
Purple, Sailfin, and yellow Tang
Mag Foxface
2 Clowns
2 Yellow Chromis

No one seems to pay any attention to the Labouts with exception of the one Yellow Chromis.

Im not sure if I acclimated improperly, or if i should have done something different. But the process I used have always worked in the past. The only thing I did differently this time was complete water change before I added this beautiful guy and add my phosphate reducer.

Please advise for I am terribly upset and do not want this to happen again.

Thank you.

Gopilosaurus · 03/03/2014, 11:44 AM

Had he been in QT prior to this or was it a new purchase? If it had been in a bag for a long time, there might be an ammonium build up. When the bag is opened, the pH changes and ammonia forms (more toxic than ammonium). This can make long acclimations deadly.

Can you provide any information other than "very good" when it come to water quality? Actual numbers go a long way in helping determine what's going on. Do you have values for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH?
What was the water the fish coming from like?

Sk8r · 03/03/2014, 12:00 PM

Immediate suspicion is ammonia exposure during (because of) acclimation: bag when sealed has ammonium; opening it to acclimate converts ammonium (harmless) to ammonia (lethal). Pre-set your qt tank to the incoming salinity (phone the supplier and ask) and you won't have to acclimate except a 15 minute float to even out the temperature.

snorvich · 03/03/2014, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Immediate suspicion is ammonia exposure during (because of) acclimation: bag when sealed has ammonium; opening it to acclimate converts ammonium (harmless) to ammonia (lethal). Pre-set your qt tank to the incoming salinity (phone the supplier and ask) and you won't have to acclimate except a 15 minute float to even out the temperature.

This or the second most likely problem is that shipping SG was below tank SG even after acclimation. Many vendors or LFS keep their water at a low SG to save money on salt.

Goofy393 · 03/03/2014, 01:47 PM

Thank you all for the response. Here are my water parameters:

Ammonium: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: less than .5
PH: 8.2
Cal: 400
Alk: 9dkh
Phos: 0

Picked up at lfs that had him for 2 weeks. They said their sg was 1.022. Was in bag for about 2 hrs including the time I temp acclimated.

I did not QT but rather drip acclimated for about 1.5hrs and 3 times the water volume.

snorvich · 03/03/2014, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofy393

Thank you all for the response. Here are my water parameters:

Ammonium: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: less than .5
PH: 8.2
Cal: 400
Alk: 9dkh
Phos: 0

Picked up at lfs that had him for 2 weeks. They said their sg was 1.022. Was in bag for about 2 hrs including the time I temp acclimated.

I did not QT but rather drip acclimated for about 1.5hrs and 3 times the water volume.

Did you check their SG? And what was your SG?

Goofy393 · 03/03/2014, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Did you check their SG? And what was your SG?

My sg is 1.024-1.025. I did not check LFS, but they said theirs is 1.022. My other two Wrasses came from them and they are doing great!

ca1ore · 03/03/2014, 03:10 PM

FWIW, most of the LFS near me are much lower than 1.022 - one even at 1.015. That's a tough acclimation! I got sick of acclimating new fish to 1.025, and losing some of them, so I don't do it anymore. Do yourself a favor, setup a small QT, matched to shipping water. Even if you only keep the fish in there for a week while you bring up the salinity, it is better than nothing.

Sk8r · 03/03/2014, 03:12 PM

THis is where a refractometer means a fast and accurate test, when time is critical. I heartily recommend it if you don't have one.

Goofy393 · 03/03/2014, 04:00 PM

Thank you Sk8r. I do have a Refractometer but in that I'm new i tend to trust people in this hobby. I will take your advice.

So it appears as though most think its was wither a sg thing or ammonia thing. I can get my head around the sg, but what can be done with regard to ammonia in the bag?

danil · 03/03/2014, 04:11 PM

If money involved I wouldn't just trust anyone's words. Verified and adjust accordingly.
Keep your eyes on other fish who knows what was real cause of wrasse death. It could be stress due to acclimation or it could be some hidden sickness and last thing you want to spread it among other fish.

snorvich · 03/03/2014, 04:16 PM

Note that your refractometer must be properly calibrated. Also, I would take your refractometer and read the SG at your LFS.

ca1ore · 03/03/2014, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goofy393

Was in bag for about 2 hrs including the time I temp acclimated.

Given the short 'bag' time, I'd be inclined to think it probably wasn't an ammonia problem. IME, ammonia becomes more of a problem when the fish has been in the bag for 12-24 hours (overnight shipped).

Sk8r · 03/04/2014, 10:30 AM

If you bought it locally, it SHOULD have been ok: if shipped, less so...
The short version: fish poop. Poop = ammonium in bag; respiration = co2 buildup. A fish can be two days in a bag. It's still ammonium. No harm.
You open bag. Co2 escapes. PH of water now changes. Changed ph converts ammonium to ammonia.
So the more fish poop in bag, longer time, worse level of ammonium. An air-shipped fish may have quite a lot; a locally transported one not so much. Drip acclimation should be 30 min or less: relates to how fast this reaction is, how much ammonium is there, etc. But standard recommendation is 30 min or less.
If the fish was local, less likely ammonia killed him. In that case, he may have come in sick. If he was shipped, ammonia is high on the list of suspects.
There is also the possibility that he was caught by cyanide dosing an area: this unscrupulous practice is rare, but has been known. Reputable sellers try to stop this: those that offer a two week guarantee also get the reports when they have a lot of fish die.

tmz · 03/04/2014, 11:02 AM

Sorry for your loss.
It may have been ammonia toxicity during acclimation but that is less likely if the fish was in the bag water for a short period of time. I'd suspect disease or pre existing damage particularly given the labored breathing noted. Quarantine is important for a disease free tank and can be used to acclimate too.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine

03/03/2014, 11:38 AM	#1
Goofy393 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: South Florida Posts: 68	Labout's Fairy Died after one night I am so upset that my new addition died sometime last night. I added a Labout's Wrasse who appeared to acclimate well through the process but I found him dead this morning and don't know why. Here are my parameters: 110g 1.025 sg Water very good 78 degrees I acclimated for over an hour at which time I did water change before adding to DT. Turned off lights and slowly added some ambient light and fed tank, which he ate. I only noticed a little harassment from a Yellow Chromis before going to bed. He did seem to be breathing a little heavy at that time but was swimming around all over the tank. I have: Salon and Exquisit wrasse Purple, Sailfin, and yellow Tang Mag Foxface 2 Clowns 2 Yellow Chromis No one seems to pay any attention to the Labouts with exception of the one Yellow Chromis. Im not sure if I acclimated improperly, or if i should have done something different. But the process I used have always worked in the past. The only thing I did differently this time was complete water change before I added this beautiful guy and add my phosphate reducer. Please advise for I am terribly upset and do not want this to happen again. Thank you. __________________ 110 gal mixed with 2 H-52's and R-300 Fuge. Building out 265g!

03/03/2014, 12:00 PM	#3
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Immediate suspicion is ammonia exposure during (because of) acclimation: bag when sealed has ammonium; opening it to acclimate converts ammonium (harmless) to ammonia (lethal). Pre-set your qt tank to the incoming salinity (phone the supplier and ask) and you won't have to acclimate except a 15 minute float to even out the temperature. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/03/2014, 01:47 PM	#5
Goofy393 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: South Florida Posts: 68	Thank you all for the response. Here are my water parameters: Ammonium: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: less than .5 PH: 8.2 Cal: 400 Alk: 9dkh Phos: 0 Picked up at lfs that had him for 2 weeks. They said their sg was 1.022. Was in bag for about 2 hrs including the time I temp acclimated. I did not QT but rather drip acclimated for about 1.5hrs and 3 times the water volume. __________________ 110 gal mixed with 2 H-52's and R-300 Fuge. Building out 265g!

03/03/2014, 03:10 PM	#8
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	FWIW, most of the LFS near me are much lower than 1.022 - one even at 1.015. That's a tough acclimation! I got sick of acclimating new fish to 1.025, and losing some of them, so I don't do it anymore. Do yourself a favor, setup a small QT, matched to shipping water. Even if you only keep the fish in there for a week while you bring up the salinity, it is better than nothing. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

03/03/2014, 03:12 PM	#9
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	THis is where a refractometer means a fast and accurate test, when time is critical. I heartily recommend it if you don't have one. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/03/2014, 11:44 AM	#2
Gopilosaurus Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Raleigh NC Posts: 54	Had he been in QT prior to this or was it a new purchase? If it had been in a bag for a long time, there might be an ammonium build up. When the bag is opened, the pH changes and ammonia forms (more toxic than ammonium). This can make long acclimations deadly. Can you provide any information other than "very good" when it come to water quality? Actual numbers go a long way in helping determine what's going on. Do you have values for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH? What was the water the fish coming from like?

03/03/2014, 04:00 PM	#10
Goofy393 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: South Florida Posts: 68	Thank you Sk8r. I do have a Refractometer but in that I'm new i tend to trust people in this hobby. I will take your advice. So it appears as though most think its was wither a sg thing or ammonia thing. I can get my head around the sg, but what can be done with regard to ammonia in the bag? __________________ 110 gal mixed with 2 H-52's and R-300 Fuge. Building out 265g!

03/03/2014, 04:11 PM	#11
danil Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Concord, CA Posts: 935	If money involved I wouldn't just trust anyone's words. Verified and adjust accordingly. Keep your eyes on other fish who knows what was real cause of wrasse death. It could be stress due to acclimation or it could be some hidden sickness and last thing you want to spread it among other fish.

03/03/2014, 04:16 PM	#12
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	Note that your refractometer must be properly calibrated. Also, I would take your refractometer and read the SG at your LFS.

03/04/2014, 10:30 AM	#14
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	If you bought it locally, it SHOULD have been ok: if shipped, less so... The short version: fish poop. Poop = ammonium in bag; respiration = co2 buildup. A fish can be two days in a bag. It's still ammonium. No harm. You open bag. Co2 escapes. PH of water now changes. Changed ph converts ammonium to ammonia. So the more fish poop in bag, longer time, worse level of ammonium. An air-shipped fish may have quite a lot; a locally transported one not so much. Drip acclimation should be 30 min or less: relates to how fast this reaction is, how much ammonium is there, etc. But standard recommendation is 30 min or less. If the fish was local, less likely ammonia killed him. In that case, he may have come in sick. If he was shipped, ammonia is high on the list of suspects. There is also the possibility that he was caught by cyanide dosing an area: this unscrupulous practice is rare, but has been known. Reputable sellers try to stop this: those that offer a two week guarantee also get the reports when they have a lot of fish die. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/04/2014, 11:02 AM	#15
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Sorry for your loss. It may have been ammonia toxicity during acclimation but that is less likely if the fish was in the bag water for a short period of time. I'd suspect disease or pre existing damage particularly given the labored breathing noted. Quarantine is important for a disease free tank and can be used to acclimate too. This thread may be of interest: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.