Fans. What should I do?

[d2mini]

Yeah, i can be lazy... or maybe it's just lack of time.
No, it's laziness.

I've been running my halides with NO fans of any kind.
I want to relieve the chiller a little bit if I can.
I've got this giant canopy, and then the open sump in the garage.
What do you think I should do?
I can hook up the fans to my Profilux if I need to.
I can go cheap walmart stuff, or I can spend more if it saves space or improves efficiency.
Suggestions?

Old pic of the old fixture but you can see the canopy space i have available...




New pic of the new light rack in the canopy.




And the sump area in my garage.

[devildog12210]

I don't have any advice but I just wanted to let you know I had to wipe a little drool from my face. Thats an amazing setup and plumbing job.

[inetmug]

mouser electronics - Orion fans

cheap, ball bearing, get the cords, real clean installation

[Rognin]

I've bought a 4 1/2 hole saw and went crazy in the stand and on my canopy. Setup is penninsula style. I'm also a computer nut, so I've added dust filters to all intakes... We have two cats, and after two weeks I have to wash them.

I installed three fans in the stand (two intakes and one exhaust for positive air pressure to reduce dust and increase total air circulation).

For the canopy, I'm using two fans with ducts to direct the air onto the water. Also dust filters. Canopy is open top so with two fans I'm hoping to get the positive airpressure also and reduce dust and hairs in the tank.

These are the fans I use with the controller. (Easier than wiring all the 12v leads and PSU to a molex. Although it's easy, this is easier).
Manufacturer Linky
FrozenCPU linky for kit and controller
Extra fans linky to FrozenCPU


What I like about them is the thickness that provides higher static pressure (mmH20) and adjustability (noise).

For dust filters I didn't go cheap. LianLi alu fan filters with removable mesh.
FrozenCPU linky


I also install antivibration gaskets and washers on everything that contacts wood to reduce noise. Ohh and I use brass nuts and bolts to make sure nothing rusts.

Here are the adjustable fan ducts I've installed, but I cut out the fan filter (reduces maintenance and was redundant)



I might of went a little overboard on fans and cooling... XD

Edit: The included fan grills with the kits are not that great (loose and cause rattles). I used regular black fan grills to cover them from the outside. If you want custom billet fan grills (plastic or alu) I have a couple contacts.

[ClownsRCoo]

Prob the most effective thing you could do since your garage is right there would be to have an exhaust fan in your canopy that vents directly into the garage? I would think that could pull the most heat out of that canopy for you. Maybe put a cheap box fan over your sump if you want even more?

I have 2 fan fixtures that are pretty much 6 computer fans in each blowing across the surface of my tank and it can keep my tank 5 degrees cooler than the surrounding temp. I have my apex cut them on when my tank gets up to 78.5 and turn off at 78.1

[r-balljunkie]

A 6" fantech mounted in the attic, use the wall space as a plenum....that would be fancy pants

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by ClownsRCoo

Prob the most effective thing you could do since your garage is right there would be to have an exhaust fan in your canopy that vents directly into the garage? I would think that could pull the most heat out of that canopy for you. Maybe put a cheap box fan over your sump if you want even more?

I have 2 fan fixtures that are pretty much 6 computer fans in each blowing across the surface of my tank and it can keep my tank 5 degrees cooler than the surrounding temp. I have my apex cut them on when my tank gets up to 78.5 and turn off at 78.1

I'm thinking this is going to be a two stage process... blow air across the water AND vent it out of the canopy?

I'm not seeing these little computer fans being able to effectively blow across a 7' span of water. Can they?

I do have the vents at the top of the canopy near the ceiling, too. With the tall ceilings and efficient AC system, i'm not worried about a little added heat to this one open floor plan room. Maybe air can be directed that up that way? But venting to the garage is an option, too.

[Rognin]

Well they can do 3 feet give or take a couple inches. If you want more air, and farther pushing computer fans you need more RPM, which means more noise. Or upsize to 120AC fans. (mmH2O = pressure = farther and stronger push) That's why I suggested 38mm thickness fans instead of the regular 25mm (bigger pitch and thicker blades push more air).

One at each end could do it I gather...

I've used Mechatronics fans outside in winter over the 52nd (-45c) for three winters. They are sealed so no worries about salt or rust, but @ 3k rpm they are in the 69dba range.

[inetmug]

you can get fans up to 135 CFM, they blow a lot of air, and are a bit loud, all in the 5" footprint. I have two 50CFMs mounted to the back of my canopy, one in, one out.

I wish I got the 35CFMs, would be quieter. Even with the LEDs on, the temp drops in the tank about a degree (acryllic). If you have hot lights, this would be an easy, cheap, and fast way to go.

you might even consider the 3.5" fans, not a lot of CF under the typical canopy.

$16/fan, aluminum housing, ball bearing fan for the 50CFM. Simple stupid stuff.

[ClownsRCoo]

To vent my stand I have 2 6" fans drawing air out of the stand. If you out two big ones on each side of you canopy drawing fresh, cool air into the canopy and a cent sucking it out into the garage I think that would well. You have those fans to help pull cool air in faster and expel your hot air. It would also suck in cooler air through your vents ok sure.

[sirreal63]

I get away with no fans because of the floating canopy, it works a lot like a chimney, the hot air rises, pulling the cooler air from around the tank perimeter. You already have everything in place except for the pulling air from around the tank up through the canopy.

One downfall of the fans is where you are pulling air from, if you are not pulling cooler from outside the canopy through the canopy, you lose a lot of the benefits of the fan. Aesthetically you may not want an opening in the canopy that light can escape from, and you may not like the sound of the fan after you have installed it, if you do the fan, isolating vibrations becomes important, of ambient noise is bothersome to you. Our house is very quiet, so making the tank as quiet as possible is important to me, it may not be to you.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

if you are not pulling cooler from outside the canopy through the canopy, you lose a lot of the benefits of the fan. Aesthetically you may not want an opening in the canopy that light can escape from

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking.
I don't want to cut holes in the canopy.
But I figure just moving the air around and directing it out of the canopy should help a little? It's not like the canopy is air tight so outside air still has to make it's way in.

My MP60's already hum... a low-noise fan wouldn't really make any difference.

[Wazzel]

I looks like you already have vent holes at the top. Have you tried a couple of fans blowing out of them?

Having your sump in the garage, in southern Texas is going to be a challenge during the summer. If you are on Marsh check with Quoc, I forget his user name. He has his sump in the garage and may have some advice to give you.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

I looks like you already have vent holes at the top. Have you tried a couple of fans blowing out of them?

Having your sump in the garage, in southern Texas is going to be a challenge during the summer. If you are on Marsh check with Quoc, I forget his user name. He has his sump in the garage and may have some advice to give you.

No, i haven't tried any fans yet. Figured I'd ask before I went spinning my wheels.
And i have not checked with Quoc. Maybe I'll shoot him a message.
The garage was no problem at all with the LEDs. But with the added heat from the MH the chiller runs a lot. Just want to reduce that a bit if I can.
The garage is the same question as the canopy... would a fan blowing over the sump do anything if its just moving hot air around?

[Wazzel]

Originally Posted by d2mini

No, i haven't tried any fans yet. Figured I'd ask before I went spinning my wheels.
And i have not checked with Quoc. Maybe I'll shoot him a message.
The garage was no problem at all with the LEDs. But with the added heat from the MH the chiller runs a lot. Just want to reduce that a bit if I can.
The garage is the same question as the canopy... would a fan blowing over the sump do anything if its just moving hot air around?

If you can force some additional evaporation you should get some cooling no matter the air temp. Living In Fulshure the high humidity/high temp days are going to make it difficult to get extra evapoeration in the garage.

I lived in Cypress, TX and had a 156 gal for a while. Summer was allways a killer, even with all my system inside. I ran many fans to not have to use a chiller and my tank still ran at 80 or so. I think there are pictures on the marsh web site, same user name. I lived just across 290 from Quoc.

[sirreal63]

Pulling air through serves two functions. It exhausts the heat up and away from the tank, replacing it with cooler air which then gets heated up and is exhausted, this helps keep the heat out of the canopy. Pulling air through also helps evaporative cooling, the air entering the canopy from the house has a lower humidity (the A/C does this) and that air readily accepts the moisture from the tank in the canopy and the fan pulls it away from the tank up through the canopy.

Just blowing hot and humid air around inside the canopy doesn't help a lot, it is already saturated and you only exhaust out through the top vents the same amount of air that can enter the canopy that is cooler. You need to be able to draw in at least the same amount of cooler air that the CFM of the fan is capable of pushing out.

I hope that makes sense? I am still drinking coffee trying to wake my wiffle ball brain wake up.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Pulling air through serves two functions. It exhausts the heat up and away from the tank, replacing it with cooler air which then gets heated up and is exhausted, this helps keep the heat out of the canopy. Pulling air through also helps evaporative cooling, the air entering the canopy from the house has a lower humidity (the A/C does this) and that air readily accepts the moisture from the tank in the canopy and the fan pulls it away from the tank up through the canopy.

Just blowing hot and humid air around inside the canopy doesn't help a lot, it is already saturated and you only exhaust out through the top vents the same amount of air that can enter the canopy that is cooler. You need to be able to draw in at least the same amount of cooler air that the CFM of the fan is capable of pushing out.

I hope that makes sense? I am still drinking coffee trying to wake my wiffle ball brain wake up.

Yeah, it totally makes sense, i'm just wondering if I can manage it at least partially without cutting holes.
If there are fans mounted behind those big upper vents blowing out, I wonder if new cooler air can be pulled in through the bottom of the canopy which is not sealed around the tank (water splashed down the glass all the time) or from under the big canopy doors? There is space between the doors and the frame because there are little rubber feet preventing wood to wood contact.

My top-off water is in the garage and is about 95 degrees in the summer so I'm not sure that just creating more evaporation will do anything. But who knows... maybe it will.

[sirreal63]

I noticed you have an A/C vent and duct chase over the tank, it would be cool if there was an easy way to tap it to run down to the tank, feeding to the bottom of the canopy, no fan would be needed then.

The fan will pull air from the path of least resistance, so it may pull air from the other vent, or around the fan, short cycling the intention of drawing air up through the canopy. The fan would need to be sealed to the canopy to prevent this and force it to draw from the bottom of the canopy.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

I noticed you have an A/C vent and duct chase over the tank, it would be cool if there was an easy way to tap it to run down to the tank, feeding to the bottom of the canopy, no fan would be needed then.

The fan will pull air from the path of least resistance, so it may pull air from the other vent, or around the fan, short cycling the intention of drawing air up through the canopy. The fan would need to be sealed to the canopy to prevent this and force it to draw from the bottom of the canopy.

dammit, jack... stop confirming everything i'm thinking.

yeah, that vent is the ac for that room.
Somehow tapping into it is an interesting thought. The canopy was designed to not cover that vent so it angles up pretty much straight to the molding at the corner of the wall/ceiling. Would probably be possible to tee off of it in the attic, come down into the garage with a 90 degree elbow back through the wall into the canopy.

[sirreal63]

It would be feasible but then the next concern is will it provide enough cooling to make a difference? My guess is no, mainly because the garage temps will trump any evaporative cooling you may get. The real solution may not be the easiest to swallow, walling off the fish room in the garage and cooling/heating it.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by sirreal63

It would be feasible but then the next concern is will it provide enough cooling to make a difference? My guess is no, mainly because the garage temps will trump any evaporative cooling you may get. The real solution may not be the easiest to swallow, walling off the fish room in the garage and cooling/heating it.

Do you mean that the temps heating up the water in the garage would overpower any cooling from the AC directed straight into the canopy?

I have thought about walling off the garage area straight from the beginning but decided against it because it would make that area more confining. It's not completely off the table, but I guess it was left as a last resort.

There will be some major things to come in the final quarter of this year, at which point I may revisit this as a solution. For now I'd just like to see if I can find a bandaid solution for the rest of this summer/fall. If some fans can help drop the temps a degree or two, that would be fine as a temporary solution.

[sirreal63]

It may help a little, no way of really knowing until you try.

[ClownsRCoo]

I would personally try the fans before I started walling off a room and running AC lines to it. It would be a cheap experiment and you'd know for sure in one afternoon. How far down are you wanting your temp to drop? Are we talking 1, 2, 5 degrees?

If I remember correctly you had a ton of room under your stand in your house. Maybe you can put a large reservoir in there for your ATO water and keep it much cooler. That along with your fans and increased evaporation may be just what you need.

You can weekly pump water from your holding tanks to your large reservoir in your house and run your ato from there. If you aren't running your chiller you can maybe chill your ATO water and your chiller would barely need to run to keep that cool. Then you'd be adding a decent amount of fresh, cool water to your tank throughout the day. If hot ATO water can do negative effects than cooler water can give you some positive ones too.

May be a dumb idea but just trying to think out of the box for you.

[nicknguyen]

I have 2 cheap $10 fans from walmart blowing air out of the canopy and helps out my chiller alot. At first I thought one blowing in and other blowing out would be more effective. I found that out to be not true, both blowing out seems to work better.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by ClownsRCoo

I would personally try the fans before I started walling off a room and running AC lines to it. It would be a cheap experiment and you'd know for sure in one afternoon. How far down are you wanting your temp to drop? Are we talking 1, 2, 5 degrees?

If I remember correctly you had a ton of room under your stand in your house. Maybe you can put a large reservoir in there for your ATO water and keep it much cooler. That along with your fans and increased evaporation may be just what you need.

You can weekly pump water from your holding tanks to your large reservoir in your house and run your ato from there. If you aren't running your chiller you can maybe chill your ATO water and your chiller would barely need to run to keep that cool. Then you'd be adding a decent amount of fresh, cool water to your tank throughout the day. If hot ATO water can do negative effects than cooler water can give you some positive ones too.

May be a dumb idea but just trying to think out of the box for you.

Just one or two degrees would be nice.
Not expecting to discontinue use of the chiller, just trying to relieve it a little bit if I can.
I don't really have much room under the stand now that I have 3 M80 mh ballasts under there.

I'll start with some fans blowing air out of the canopy and a fan blowing air over the sump and see if it makes any difference.