Using colloidal silver/bacteria info.

[treliantf]

Both papers cited are ionic silver; the question in doubt is metallic silver.

[tmz]

Not sure of your meaning "metalic silver". As a particle or an atom silver is a metal.

The study notes silver presents primarily as AgCl in seawater, not surprising as there is sulfur,oxides, carbonate ,oxides and an abundance of chloride in seawater to support reactions to release ions and for speciation, like other heavy metals such as copper . BTW, silver is much more toxic than copper. This study asserts it's 100 times more toxic to the American oyster,Crassostrea virginica, than copper:

http://images.library.wisc.edu/EcoNa...01.cecowan.pdf

If there a reason to think silver particles won't release silver ions and speciate in a reef tank, I don't know what it could possibly be. Do you have a reason to think so?

The question is about using collodial silver to treat crytocaryon irritans. If it were inert somehow which I can't fathom ; how would it have any effect this protozoan?

[treliantf]

Now we get to the correct path. Yes, silver ions are extremely toxic, tons of data said so, nothing new. It's because ionic form is so deadly, a monolayer of silver ions behave differently from bulk of free moving hydrated ions may provide a path for controlled release of the drug. Nano Ag particles are the best carrier for this somewaht immobilied bacteria killer.
Again we have no data to support any of these detailed mechanisms. We as a data-driven society should ask yes or no based on what. I do not have any association with any of these products, just want to know the answer.

[billsreef]

Simply put, based on the known science, there is no reason to think colloidal silver (or any other form) will only target unwanted pathogens. Thinking it does is based on wishful thinking....

[treliantf]

Again, I assume you have data to support you claim that NS has no selectivity against pathogens, similar to mobile Ag ions to the same bacteria.

[disc1]

Originally Posted by treliantf

Again, I assume you have data to support you claim that NS has no selectivity against pathogens, similar to mobile Ag ions to the same bacteria.

He doesn't need it. He isn't he one making the claim outside of commonly accepted wisdom. That's not how science work. You don't just imagine something and then challenge anyone to prove it wrong thinking that somehow the lack of evidence against equals a confirmation. Logic doesn't work that way. No, you imagine something and then you test it and prove it.

If you are really dedicated to this idea, then quit opining on a reef board and put the stuff in your tank. Record,exactly what you did and post here with the results. Otherwise this whole,exercise is useless.

[tmz]

I think we disagree on fundamentals.

First:
There is no reason to think sliver particles remain in a a static oxidation state in seawater of which I am aware ; to the contrary, the antibacterial and antiviral poperties attributed is tied to ions released via interactions with other elements. of free silver ions.

See pg 195,last paragraph from this:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/8941.pdf


BTW. from what I've read most CS silver solutions contain substantial amounts of free silver ions .

Second:
There is no reason to think silver particulates and the ions they release will be will be selectively lethal to protozoans vs other marine organisms.

Third:
I think it's temerarious to suggest it be used as an ich medication in a reef tank or otherwise given it's known acute toxicity to aqautic life. As I note in my earlier post I'd keep it way from my aquariums.

As for data ,the OP claimed he had clinical data showing pure silver particles effected only these parasites and not bacteria. Shocking news if true but despite requests no data nor context has been provided leading to a concluision it was a mistatement or at best a misinterpretation.

[treliantf]

I totally agree what you just stated above, Tom. Data, and only ubiased data, acquired under controlled environments can put this claim/disclaim to rest. Without data we are all alchemists serve to delay progress of science.

[disc1]

Originally Posted by treliantf

I totally agree what you just stated above, Tom. Data, and only ubiased data, acquired under controlled environments can put this claim/disclaim to rest. Without data we are all alchemists serve to delay progress of science.

You're right. We need data. There's only one way to do that. Somebody has to put the stuff in their tank and see what happens to the fish and the corals and everything else. Since we all think it is toxic, we don't want to do it. So it look like it's going to have to be your tank if you really want some data.

[billsreef]

Originally Posted by treliantf

Again, I assume you have data to support you claim that NS has no selectivity against pathogens, similar to mobile Ag ions to the same bacteria.

There is a good bit of scientific research showing rather unspecific biocidal activity of silver (feel free to do a google scholar search on the subject). With the known broad spectrum biocidal activity, anyone making a claim of pathogen specific biocidal activity, without negatively impacting non pathogenic species in a tank, really needs to be coming up with some solid backing for making such a claim. Considering the known effects on both fish and inverts, the use of silver is likely akin to using copper at best...something that should never be used in a reef tank.

[treliantf]

You are very likely to be right and we all agree we need data. Someone has to do it or I'll do it. I had done a few unorthodox experiments on my tank before: silica, fluoride addition in the tank for example. Most recently is the nitrate acute toxicity tests, to acquire critical data with some surprising results. will share when completed. Silica addition done 25 years ago virtually gave exact the same conclusion as a recent one.