Just say no to the Mr Clean Magic Eraser - Page 3

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shermanator

Magic erasers are made of melamine polymer foam, which will not degrade into monomers with rubbing. Melamine foam is incredibly resistant to mechanical degradation (I'm assuming we are taking about monomers coming off, obviously you can rip the foam in a macro sense). If you do a quick search of the scientific literature, you can find dozens of papers looking at the mechanical strength of MF.

The subject is that it degrades with use. Also remember this is not the original melamine foam. Though it might be of similar chemcal makeup that does not automatically translate tensile strength to be the same.

That's like saying paper towels are just as strong as a 2x4 because they're both made of wood.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 08:33 AM

Looks like kidney failure is a direct result of consumption as well.
http://Www.britanica.com/ebchecked/t...73631/melamine

Overall the reason why I bring this up is because it seems like an unnecessary risk.
After all, none of you have any proof that the animals are NOT eating it.

And the one thing on the label warning "do not ingest" is pretty much what's happening given that any particles in the tank interact with the organisms.

Given all of the very probable outcomes and interactions, I get called the ignorant one.

I now understand why Dr Tim and others in the scientific community don't want anything to do with people on the forums.

shermanator · 01/13/2015, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorwhoreefer

Looks like kidney failure is a direct result of consumption as well.
http://Www.britanica.com/ebchecked/t...73631/melamine

Hold up. Melamine is toxic, but melamine foam is not. They are NOT the same chemical entity. Melamine foam will NOT break down into melamine.

No offense, but your "science via google" is not doing you any favors.

If you want to argue that small particles (of melamine foam) are causing problems, well, so be it. But bringing up melamine (and it's associated toxicities, which there are quite a few) is not relevant.

shermanator · 01/13/2015, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorwhoreefer

After all, none of you have any proof that the animals are NOT eating it.

And the one thing on the label warning "do not ingest" is pretty much what's happening given that any particles in the tank interact with the organisms.

I would assume most solids (that do not dissolve in aqueous solvents) carry a warning not to eat them. An example: you should not eat live rock, but that doesn't have toxicity in our tanks.

Since you are asking for proof marine animals are not eating the foam pieces, what proof is there that they do eat pieces of magic eraser?

I'm not on either side of the argument (and maybe it's not worth the risk given alternatives that work as well), but you are not being objective here. You are posting links to "science" that isn't relevant and asking for proof from the other side that you don't have either. It's easy to see why you've gotten people worked up.

KafudaFish · 01/13/2015, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorwhoreefer

The subject is that it degrades with use. Also remember this is not the original melamine foam. Though it might be of similar chemcal makeup that does not automatically translate tensile strength to be the same.

That's like saying paper towels are just as strong as a 2x4 because they're both made of wood.

Sometimes paper towels are stronger though. I bet most reading this could punch or kick through a 2 x 4 but could not punch through a roll of paper towels.

This really is a simple question: Will magic eraser break down and kill our tank inhabitants?

Warm up your Google search engine and provide data to support your statements. If you have evidence, great please present the information so we can learn.

I am sorry that you have come on RC several times now and others have presented alternatives to your view point and disagreed with you but that is life.

So please educate us on this topic.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 08:52 AM

Btw, here's an answer as to how weak it really is.
http://Www.slideshare.net/wmint/phys...-melamine-foam

If* the ME is as strong as these stats, 50 kpa translates to 7.25 pound-force per inch squared.
Or anything over 1.1 lbs of force per square centimeter will overcome the tensile strength.

Even my grandma can produce that much force.
That is not strong.

killinit123 · 01/13/2015, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorwhoreefer

The subject is that it degrades with use. Also remember this is not the original melamine foam. Though it might be of similar chemcal makeup that does not automatically translate tensile strength to be the same.

That's like saying paper towels are just as strong as a 2x4 because they're both made of wood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shermanator

I would assume most solids (that do not dissolve in aqueous solvents) carry a warning not to eat them. An example: you should not eat live rock, but that doesn't have toxicity in our tanks.

Since you are asking for proof marine animals are not eating the foam pieces, what proof is there that they do eat pieces of magic eraser?

I'm not on either side of the argument (and maybe it's not worth the risk given alternatives that work as well), but you are not being objective here. You are posting links to "science" that isn't relevant and asking for proof from the other side that you don't have either. It's easy to see why you've gotten people worked up.

im not on either side either im neutral in this argument. FWIW though there was someone on this thread saying that one of their fish eats this stuff on a regular basis. so before anyone continues with the notion that it is not proven its being eaten, it seems to me that it has been proven fish do eat it. as for the physics and scientific aspect of it im not even going to pretend to bring it to that level. i mean i consider myself pretty scientifically savvy but ill leave this to the professionals. just my 2 cents.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KafudaFish

Sometimes paper towels are stronger though. I bet most reading this could punch or kick through a 2 x 4 but could not punch through a roll of paper towels.

This really is a simple question: Will magic eraser break down and kill our tank inhabitants?

Warm up your Google search engine and provide data to support your statements. If you have evidence, great please present the information so we can learn.

I am sorry that you have come on RC several times now and others have presented alternatives to your view point and disagreed with you but that is life.

So please educate us on this topic.

I see what you mean about the paper towels, but you're tryin awful hard to justify this, why? Don't you care enough about your tank to just skip this kitchen product? I mean really, you guys on here talk pretty big talk for not having a shred of scientific proof the ME *isn't breaking down.
We've already seen one person verify the fish are eating it. Are you goin to say the fish is dumb or admit its probably not something that should be added to the tank. After all they only eat what we put in there.

As to the facts of life, yes, I'm aware there's a lot more talk in this hobby than scientific analysis.

When a doctor prescribed a pill they don't say "OK! All is good, no obvious effects!!" No, that is not what happens. People would die en masse. But that's exactly what you're doing. And probably not even giving a second thought to the ME when something DOES die.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shermanator

I would assume most solids (that do not dissolve in aqueous solvents) carry a warning not to eat them. An example: you should not eat live rock, but that doesn't have toxicity in our tanks.

Since you are asking for proof marine animals are not eating the foam pieces, what proof is there that they do eat pieces of magic eraser?

I'm not on either side of the argument (and maybe it's not worth the risk given alternatives that work as well), but you are not being objective here. You are posting links to "science" that isn't relevant and asking for proof from the other side that you don't have either. It's easy to see why you've gotten people worked up.

That's the whole thing though. I know if I dump powdered substances in my tank, the fish breathe it, the corals grab it with their mucous, the list could go on. So what's the point of caring about the tank if you're going to do zero scientific observations?
I'm sorry but if people challenge a tank that's been setup for 5 years that's been carbon dosing as to whether its actually stable, how are they not going to question something like this?
I would bet I could dump a teaspoon of motor oil in the tank everyday and nothing "obvious" would happen.

Let alone for the people that have used the ME, are they dissecting their fish/corals after they die? Because that would really be the ONLY WAY to verify the ME isn't killing things over time.

ghostman · 01/13/2015, 09:29 AM

This whole thread is pointless. You provide no facts, don't listen to other reefers opinions and experiences, and make wild assumptions. If you don't want to use them, then don't. You haven't convinved anyone that your assumptions are correct, but make accusations that everyone is wrong and harming their tanks. If you have valid proof, provide it. Otherwise I feel your contribution to RC is simply to provide misinformation.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 09:31 AM

Here's some more info from the physics perspective. http://www.theergonomicscenter.com/g...n/Strength.pdf

Check out the bottom table. Thumb and little finger.
Though we cant take it for every scenario, its more data than guessing.

The tip of your finger is maybe a couple square centimeters, depending upon size.
But here they have the thumb against the weakest finger, and pinching results in 4 and 6 lbs of pressure. And this exercise even has the arm at rest.

What happens when you wipe the inside of your tank? Your arm and even torso adds to the exerted force. So how many times is that OVER the 1.1 lbs of pressure per square centimeter?

Beyond that you have to remember tensile strength is only if you grabbed each end and pulled/compressed. When you get into wear from a physics standpoint tensile strength is not the "tell all".

This is why people have found out theres a lot of physics to consider when building a boat. It becomes a tensile strength vs modulus of elasticity vs compression strength vs strength to weight ratio.

All of this principles of physics come into play when you scrub something with a piece of foam.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostman

This whole thread is pointless. You provide no facts, don't listen to other reefers opinions and experiences, and make wild assumptions. If you don't want to use them, then don't. You haven't convinved anyone that your assumptions are correct, but make accusations that everyone is wrong and harming their tanks. If you have valid proof, provide it. Otherwise I feel your contribution to RC is simply to provide misinformation.

Its cool ghostman, I see you're upset and cant contribute so you have to personally attack me and say I'm full of it.

That seems to be how some in the hobby operate.
No hard feelings.

ghostman · 01/13/2015, 09:36 AM

That table provides absolutely no information about the breakdown of melamine into smaller particles that get eaten and harm corals or fish. The pressure exerted by the hand cannot break down the polymer into smaller components. There is nothing to contribute in this thread. There is no physics involved. It is pointless....

I actually believe you are spreading misinformation, which is a disservice to RC. If you have some experience or some knowledge that you wish to share, please do. Many experienced reefers have pointed out flaws in your argument. As previously indicated, please provide proof rather than saying everyone else is wrong.

doctorwhoreefer · 01/13/2015, 09:53 AM

Ghostman, your opinion is noted. But to say physics is not involved is quite inaccurate. Physics is all around us.

ghostman · 01/13/2015, 09:55 AM

Duly noted. As previously indicated, I'm a physicist.

01/13/2015, 09:29 AM	#60
ghostman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Spring Hill, Florida Posts: 1,629	This whole thread is pointless. You provide no facts, don't listen to other reefers opinions and experiences, and make wild assumptions. If you don't want to use them, then don't. You haven't convinved anyone that your assumptions are correct, but make accusations that everyone is wrong and harming their tanks. If you have valid proof, provide it. Otherwise I feel your contribution to RC is simply to provide misinformation. __________________ When you die, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for the people around you. It's the same when you're stupid. Current Tank Info: 40IM Fusion, 40lbs of rock, and 20lbs of sand. Just a few fish and corals....for now.

01/13/2015, 09:36 AM	#63
ghostman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Spring Hill, Florida Posts: 1,629	That table provides absolutely no information about the breakdown of melamine into smaller particles that get eaten and harm corals or fish. The pressure exerted by the hand cannot break down the polymer into smaller components. There is nothing to contribute in this thread. There is no physics involved. It is pointless.... I actually believe you are spreading misinformation, which is a disservice to RC. If you have some experience or some knowledge that you wish to share, please do. Many experienced reefers have pointed out flaws in your argument. As previously indicated, please provide proof rather than saying everyone else is wrong. __________________ When you die, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for the people around you. It's the same when you're stupid. Current Tank Info: 40IM Fusion, 40lbs of rock, and 20lbs of sand. Just a few fish and corals....for now. Last edited by ghostman; 01/13/2015 at 09:42 AM.

01/13/2015, 09:55 AM	#65
ghostman Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Spring Hill, Florida Posts: 1,629	Duly noted. As previously indicated, I'm a physicist. __________________ When you die, you don't know you're dead. It's only difficult for the people around you. It's the same when you're stupid. Current Tank Info: 40IM Fusion, 40lbs of rock, and 20lbs of sand. Just a few fish and corals....for now.

01/13/2015, 08:33 AM	#52
doctorwhoreefer Moved On Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 353	Looks like kidney failure is a direct result of consumption as well. http://Www.britanica.com/ebchecked/t...73631/melamine Overall the reason why I bring this up is because it seems like an unnecessary risk. After all, none of you have any proof that the animals are NOT eating it. And the one thing on the label warning "do not ingest" is pretty much what's happening given that any particles in the tank interact with the organisms. Given all of the very probable outcomes and interactions, I get called the ignorant one. I now understand why Dr Tim and others in the scientific community don't want anything to do with people on the forums.

01/13/2015, 08:52 AM	#56
doctorwhoreefer Moved On Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 353	Btw, here's an answer as to how weak it really is. http://Www.slideshare.net/wmint/phys...-melamine-foam If* the ME is as strong as these stats, 50 kpa translates to 7.25 pound-force per inch squared. Or anything over 1.1 lbs of force per square centimeter will overcome the tensile strength. Even my grandma can produce that much force. That is not strong.

01/13/2015, 09:31 AM	#61
doctorwhoreefer Moved On Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 353	Here's some more info from the physics perspective. http://www.theergonomicscenter.com/g...n/Strength.pdf Check out the bottom table. Thumb and little finger. Though we cant take it for every scenario, its more data than guessing. The tip of your finger is maybe a couple square centimeters, depending upon size. But here they have the thumb against the weakest finger, and pinching results in 4 and 6 lbs of pressure. And this exercise even has the arm at rest. What happens when you wipe the inside of your tank? Your arm and even torso adds to the exerted force. So how many times is that OVER the 1.1 lbs of pressure per square centimeter? Beyond that you have to remember tensile strength is only if you grabbed each end and pulled/compressed. When you get into wear from a physics standpoint tensile strength is not the "tell all". This is why people have found out theres a lot of physics to consider when building a boat. It becomes a tensile strength vs modulus of elasticity vs compression strength vs strength to weight ratio. All of this principles of physics come into play when you scrub something with a piece of foam.

01/13/2015, 09:53 AM	#64
doctorwhoreefer Moved On Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 353	Ghostman, your opinion is noted. But to say physics is not involved is quite inaccurate. Physics is all around us.