why use a skimmer with a refugium sump?

[DJasak]

Hey guys, so I'm reading a book about setting up a reef aquarium, and although it is very informative and helpful it hasn't answered my question about skimmers. I understand that there are a lot of benefits to skimmers, but what I don't understand is why use a skimmer if you have a refugium?

Skimmers are not always necessary in aquariums, and it is my understanding that as well as removing dissolved organics, they can remove trace elements, beneficial bacteria, microscopic algae, and larger forms of plankton. To me it doesn't seem worth it to install a skimmer if you have a refugium, especially if you have inhabitants that feed on, and benefit from, the plankton and algae. In my book it says "filter-feeding organisms, such as sponges and fanworms, do grow more prolifically in tanks without skimmers and corals often show better polyp extension." So why install something that takes away so much good?
I guess I have a lot of questions about skimmers still so I'll just list them:

I want to keep a steady population of breeding pods in my tank to feed my corals and fish. Will a skimmer wipe out this population of pods in the tank?

I always see people who have both a refugium and skimmer installed, is this just a preventative personal preference or does one actually help the other, or rather, does the skimmer still serve a purpose in keeping the tank water clean?

Along with that, does a skimmer negatively impact your refugium, corals and/or inverts?

I plan on using miracle mud in my refugium because it's supposed to add all the trace elements needed to your water, so supplemental dosing is not needed. True or false, and if true will the skimmer just wipe out these elements? (I know calcium is dependent on what's in the tank but I'm not sure about the others)

And lastly a little off the wall question but still on the topic of refugiums: based on what I said I want to do with pods and my refugium, is a uv sterilizer a good or bad idea?

Sorry for all the questions, I know it's a tall order, if anybody is willing to tackle this I'd really appreciate it and thank you in advance!!

[IanWR]

I can't help feeling trolled. You previously considered boiling water and condensing the steam whilst you saved for a ro/DI unit. You also talked about your tank that has been running for months and the many and varied things you dose. And now you're reading a book and want to debate the value of skimmers? I don't get it.

[FraggledRock]

Let me guess you run filter socks too?

Skimmers are used to remove Dissolved Organic Matter DOM aka DOC.

Refugiums are a part of the filtration system.

thats like saying if you have a refugium why have GFO or carbon?

each is an aspect of filtration that helps keep the water clear visually and chemically.

That's pretty much it.

it wont kill pods.

some could get trapped but I don't think thats a big issue.

if you really need pods and are afraid your filtration is a problem you can run a pod tank specifically for growing pods.

[jimmy_beaner]

I'll bite...

Skimmers are not always necessary in aquariums

True

I want to keep a steady population of breeding pods in my tank to feed my corals and fish. Will a skimmer wipe out this population of pods in the tank?

No. (For what it's worth, if you use a filter stock or other mechanical filtration that is similar... the pods won't really have a chance to make it to your skimmer.)

Along with that, does a skimmer negatively impact your corals and/or inverts?

No. If it did, why would the vast majority of nice aquariums use one?

I plan on using miracle mud in my refugium because it's supposed to add all the trace elements needed to your water, so supplemental dosing is not needed. True or false, and if true will the skimmer just wipe out these elements?

Do you know how skimming removes dissolved organics? If not, look it up.

And lastly a little off the wall question but still on the topic of refugiums: based on what I said I want to do with pods and my refugium, is a uv sterilizer a good or bad idea?

How would a skimmer be less damaging than a UV sterilizer on the things passing through it?

[Sk8r]

THey don't do the same thing. A refugium oxygenates and grows small crustaceans as fishfood, plus processing waste. A skimmer specifically removes amino acids that are dissolved in the water---acting rather like the ocean surf. It also oxygenates. They generally don't remove much else significant.

Trace elements are provided by your marine salt mix. You have to dose 3 things, and the miracle mud won't provide those in sufficient quantity for stony coral. Those are alkalinity buffer, calcium, and magnesium. You do 10% water changes weekly, and topoff with fresh water. Calcium can be put into your freshwater topoff. Buffer and magnesium can be added by hand about once every 3 months, in a typical stony reef tank...sometimes sooner, depending on tank and topoff reservoir sizes. I have a large reservoir and haven't needed to adjust in the last 6 months. A UV sterilizer is not necessary, IMHO, and after one failed and two more caught fire out at my koi pond, I'm not having one in in the house.

Re 'rich' water (slightly dirty) a tank produces so much waste it needs help---that's what a skimmer does. Helps. THe only corals that need hyperclean water and killer skimmers are sps. Most take a moderate skimmer. Running a no-skimmer tank---usually not as successful. Your tank is not the ocean and it doesn't have cleansing currents washing through it or storms pounding the froth onto a beach---the latter is what a skimmer's froth subs for. If you saw the murky mess in my skimmer uptake cup right now---well, it's not what I want dissolved in my water.
The way a good skimmer works is to froth the water so the bubbles alone go up a tube and break, depositing crud in the cup, while most of the water with all its minerals just keeps right on going back into the tank. The only time a skimmer uptakes too much is if it's out of adjustment and producing watery colorless fluid in the cup, ie, 'overflowing'. That's to avoid.

THere's a massive sticky file atop this forum entitled SETTING UP. Recommended reading. It'll answer a lot of your questions.

[Camel413]

I have saw systems that have been running for years (10-15 years, multiple tanks) with no skimmer. They all use the same 3 things: Deep sand bed, Refugium, and a true Algae Turf Scrubber. All of those tanks only do a yearly 10% water change and add supplements as needed. I know this goes against what most people will say but I can say all of these systems are doing great and have been for years. I am actually setting up my new tank the same way.

Google "terre haute reef store" and look there for info.

[FraggledRock]

Originally Posted by Camel413

I have saw systems that have been running for years (10-15 years, multiple tanks) with no skimmer. They all use the same 3 things: Deep sand bed, Refugium, and a true Algae Turf Scrubber. All of those tanks only do a yearly 10% water change and add supplements as needed. I know this goes against what most people will say but I can say all of these systems are doing great and have been for years. I am actually setting up my new tank the same way.

Google "terre haute reef store" and look there for info.

so having a skimmer would negate something and force them to do more water changes?

[DJasak]

Thank you all for the responses! I apologize for the confusion, please allow me to explain my current situation to get you up to speed...I was going to save for an RO unit but decided to just buy distilled water since I'm exclusively doing nano tanks. I am in an apartment that will not allow bigger tanks, I live on the 2nd floor of the building and I could not financially manage a larger tank. Also my fiance is 8.5 months pregnant so all my money is dedicated to that and I only spend small amounts at a time toward my hobby. I originally set up a 30 gallon tank with just a HOB filter, and power head. It was my very first saltwater tank, and am obviously learning lots as I go. When I first set up the tank I rushed things and cut corners that I shouldn't have and have now completely restarted with a 16 gallon tank, HOB filter from my 30 gallon, same power head, about 15-20 pounds of rock and 3 of the original 5 fish I had. While I manage this tank I am inquiring about these things cause I want to rebuild the 30 and do it right. I am using distilled water, and am not doing any kind of dosing as this is a FOWLER tank. I am trying to keep it as simple as possible so I can learn and correct things before they go terribly wrong and am reading this book to learn as much as I can and asking questions along the way before I build anything so that I do it right as this is my 2nd attempt. I love the hobby so I don't want to give it up and do not want to do anything to harm the fish or inverts. I have been successful with freshwater tanks for years and really appreciate the saltwater side of things but realize it is a totally different ball game. I'm just trying to do the right thing and ask before I do. I really want to do a refugium and now realize that if I'm concerned about a protein skimmer, a uv sterilizer is a dumb question. I really want to do a uv sterilizer because if I understand correctly it is a nice preventative measure as far as fish diseases go. I just wasn't sure if using both a skimmer and refugium was a good idea or if I would be better off doing one or the other. Thank you all for the clarification on things. And I hope I answered any questions.

[DJasak]

And I ultimately want to do a reef tank but realize it will be years before I am at that point

[3FordFamily]

The better question is why not have both.

[Camel413]

Originally Posted by FraggledRock

so having a skimmer would negate something and force them to do more water changes?

Skimmers are only about 40% efficient at removing "nasties", of course that is a very rough estimate. The algae turf scrubbers that they employ there are so efficient that sometimes they have to dump a ton of fish food in to add nutrients to the system to keep the scrubbers alive. They recommend using automatic feeders to feed 4-6 times a day. The way they have it set up it is hard to overload the system.

I wouldnt say they would do more water changes but there is just no need to add another piece of equipment to a system that is already doing great. As was stated skimmers do remove some pods and elements that are needed. How much? No idea but I would rather not use a skimmer and wont have to worry about cleaning it or removing things that I WANT to keep in my system.

Again, I know that it goes against what the majority say to do but I have seen it and it seems to work. There has been a TON of research that has went into those three things working together.

[aprilschutt]

Hi there. I am a newbie here and just picked up a 75 gallon tank that is drilled with 2 holes on the bottom right corner. It also came with a 55 gallon sump that has three compartments. I am wondering if someone would walk me through how to plumb everything and also what I should purchase to put in each compartment. I am thinking filter socks and skimmer and I also want one of the compartments to be a refugium. Any help appreciated. Thanks much!

I am including some pictures of the sump. Also, any idea what an acrylic square with a hole drilled in the middle is for? The square is about 5" and the hole maybe 2"?

[JammyBirch]

I have both, and have pods all over the sump, never see them in the DT pretty sure they don't last long there.

Keep in mind running a skimmer doesn't skim every single drop of water in your tank, look at how they are designed, they grab what they grab.

A fuge is not used for cleaning the water it is a place grow macro algae and house pods and other cool little things. Algae for ph control and nitrate uptake. My daughter and I spend a lot of time looking at our fuge it's pretty cool.

Other than my $0.02, just read what sk8ter and others posted...

The better question is why would you get into this hobby without an RODI unit? I would put everything else on hold until that is purchased. Take it from, I used RODI from a friend for a month what a pain in the butt...

$80 for RODI unit is a drop in the bucket for this hobby. Good luck...

[JammyBirch]

Originally Posted by aprilschutt

Hi there. I am a newbie here and just picked up a 75 gallon tank that is drilled with 2 holes on the bottom right corner. It also came with a 55 gallon sump that has three compartments. I am wondering if someone would walk me through how to plumb everything and also what I should purchase to put in each compartment. I am thinking filter socks and skimmer and I also want one of the compartments to be a refugium. Any help appreciated. Thanks much!

I am including some pictures of the sump. Also, any idea what an acrylic square with a hole drilled in the middle is for? The square is about 5" and the hole maybe 2"?

Do us a favor and start a new thread for this after you do some research on the forum, I hope you are not taking this the wrong way but there is a wealth of knowledge on this stuff.

You should do some research, come up with an approach that you are likely to try, ask questions about specific things you don't understand...then take all of the data and post a build thread for folks to comment on and help you.

The problem is the question is so broad no one will respond because there are a million ways to do it. Best thing to do is post what you are wanting to do and you'll get info from everyone.

[aprilschutt]

By the way I just realized I posted my post in this thread and was trying to make a new one. I am very sorry about that.

[smittysmith2]

Originally Posted by DJasak

Thank you all for the responses! I apologize for the confusion, please allow me to explain my current situation to get you up to speed...I was going to save for an RO unit but decided to just buy distilled water since I'm exclusively doing nano tanks. I am in an apartment that will not allow bigger tanks, I live on the 2nd floor of the building and I could not financially manage a larger tank. Also my fiance is 8.5 months pregnant so all my money is dedicated to that and I only spend small amounts at a time toward my hobby. I originally set up a 30 gallon tank with just a HOB filter, and power head. It was my very first saltwater tank, and am obviously learning lots as I go. When I first set up the tank I rushed things and cut corners that I shouldn't have and have now completely restarted with a 16 gallon tank, HOB filter from my 30 gallon, same power head, about 15-20 pounds of rock and 3 of the original 5 fish I had. While I manage this tank I am inquiring about these things cause I want to rebuild the 30 and do it right. I am using distilled water, and am not doing any kind of dosing as this is a FOWLER tank. I am trying to keep it as simple as possible so I can learn and correct things before they go terribly wrong and am reading this book to learn as much as I can and asking questions along the way before I build anything so that I do it right as this is my 2nd attempt. I love the hobby so I don't want to give it up and do not want to do anything to harm the fish or inverts. I have been successful with freshwater tanks for years and really appreciate the saltwater side of things but realize it is a totally different ball game. I'm just trying to do the right thing and ask before I do. I really want to do a refugium and now realize that if I'm concerned about a protein skimmer, a uv sterilizer is a dumb question. I really want to do a uv sterilizer because if I understand correctly it is a nice preventative measure as far as fish diseases go. I just wasn't sure if using both a skimmer and refugium was a good idea or if I would be better off doing one or the other. Thank you all for the clarification on things. And I hope I answered any questions.

Dude! In approximately 2 weeks you are not going to have time for nanos. That baby will occupy every nano second you have. Congrats!