Quarantine Math

[CruxOp]

I follow the standard QT process when introducing new fish (30 days), however I'm starting to wonder about the need for a full 30 days when you are proactively treating fish if there are no signs of infection, ich, etc. and the fish seems well socialized (active, not flashing, eating, seems stress free)

In a tank being treated with copper, Ich essentially has a ~7 day period where it is capable of being physically transmitted from tank to tank on the fish itself. The only time this could happen is when the ich is actually embedded in the fish. Any of it's free stages would be killed by the copper in the water, so you don't have to worry about free swimming ich, and you don't have to worry about existing tomonts because when they hatch they will be killed immediately and unable to infect.

So that being said, what about this process:

• Bring a new fish into QT and Prazi and Cupramine proactively
• Once cupra is at full concentration set a 15 day timer
• At the end of 15 days if everything is fine, then fish is good to transfer dip with clean water and transfer into the DT

Anyone have thoughts on this? Any other diseases that would take longer to manifest than ich that wouldn't be killed with 15 days of copper that I'm not thinking of? Obviously this won't work with corals, inverts, etc. because you can't treat w copper. I think that the minimum effective time in QT is better for the fish and reduces the risk of something going wrong during the QT period.

[Dmorty217]

If a fish come out of a low dose of copper the symptoms are masked for up to 30 days but with treating right away that won't matter. I think you will find you will lose a lot of fish putting them directly into cupramine before they are eating or eating well enough. A better process would be TTM with new fish followed by prazipro or you can use prazipro in conjunction with TTM since PP is only active for 3 days. Followed by another 2-3 weeks of observation before dropping the fish into the DT

[Newsmyrna80]

^agree. Too many fish are copper sensitive. My quarantine protocol is what Dmorty recommends but I observe for a month after TT is complete. It gives brook and velvet (most common diseases after ich) to present. It hasn't failed me yet.

[Dmorty217]

I personally QT for up to 10 weeks total depending on the fish. Longer is always better. Slow and steady wins the race in this hobby

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Newsmyrna80

^agree. Too many fish are copper sensitive. My quarantine protocol is what Dmorty recommends but I observe for a month after TT is complete. It gives brook and velvet (most common diseases after ich) to present. It hasn't failed me yet.

this is what I would recommend. Tank transfer will always eliminate ich but no other parasite (unless you are doing formalin baths in between transfer cycles). Copper for 30 days may be insufficient for ich and may not eliminate other parasites. 15 days is not going to catch ich frequently.

[Newsmyrna80]

Hey Steve! Glad you're back

[ThRoewer]

I don't know why so many people around here still want to use copper. The only parasite it is well suited to kill is Cryptocaryon and for that we have much better and faster treatments.

Copper does nothing against brook, which by my observations is now one of most common parasite on new fish, maybe only second to ich.

Some Amyloodinium (velvet) strains have been reported to be able to adapt to copper and the copper levels required to kill these are almost triple the dose fish can handle.

In my book copper is an outright useless, if not even dangerous "medication". Dangerous, because if misdiagnosed it may not only allow a Brook infection to persist, but outright promote it by lowering the fish's immune defenses.

So I would always discourage its use and rather promote TTM if it is a clearly identified Cryptocaryon infection. For new fish as a prophylactic treatment combined with at least one or two formalin baths to kill possible Brooklynella, Amyloodinium, Uronema and several other potential infections (including flukes) before they become a problem.
TTM could also be combined with Chloroquine Phosphate to kill velvet.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

I don't know why so many people around here still want to use copper. The only parasite it is well suited to kill is Cryptocaryon and for that we have much better and faster treatments.

Copper does nothing against brook, which by my observations is now one of most common parasite on new fish, maybe only second to ich.

Some Amyloodinium (velvet) strains have been reported to be able to adapt to copper and the copper levels required to kill these are almost triple the dose fish can handle.

In my book copper is an outright useless, if not even dangerous "medication". Dangerous, because if misdiagnosed it may not only allow a Brook infection to persist, but outright promote it by lowering the fish's immune defenses.

So I would always discourage its use and rather promote TTM if it is a clearly identified Cryptocaryon infection. For new fish as a prophylactic treatment combined with at least one or two formalin baths to kill possible Brooklynella, Amyloodinium, Uronema and several other potential infections (including flukes) before they become a problem.
TTM could also be combined with Chloroquine Phosphate to kill velvet.

I would agree. Also, it should be known that for a very high degree of assurance, copper would have to be at therapeutic dose for 72 days. For cryptocaryon irritans, tank transfer is the preferred prophylactic treatment and for most others chloroquine phosphate (CP) will be effective. A lot of the the ich tank wipeouts are not ich, they are velvet or brook.

In terms of frequency of occurrence, my subjective ranking, based on reported occurrence on this board would be:

1. flukes (angels, tangs, butterfly fish)
2. velvet (butterfly fish)
3. ich (various)
4. brook (primarily clownfish but highly contagious)
5. uronema (primarily chromis)
6. septicemia

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Newsmyrna80

Hey Steve! Glad you're back

Thanks! Greatly appreciated!!

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by snorvich

... Also, it should be known that for a very high degree of assurance, copper would have to be at therapeutic dose for 72 days.

I would think that after such long copper exposure at those levels the likelihood of kidney damage is pretty high.

Originally Posted by snorvich

...
In terms of frequency of occurrence, my subjective ranking, based on reported occurrence on this board would be:

1. flukes (angels, tangs, butterfly fish)
2. velvet (butterfly fish)
3. ich (various)
4. brook (primarily clownfish but highly contagious)
5. uronema (primarily chromis)
6. septicemia

My ranking of brook at number two came from what I see at local stores around here. Plus my main interest is in clownfish, so just for that reason I had more encounters with brook.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

I would think that after such long copper exposure at those levels the likelihood of kidney damage is pretty high.

I agree. I am not a believer in copper treatment in general. The only treatment that I advocate for cryptocaryon irritans is tank transfer. The lack of predictability of the backend of the life cycle and the various strains we encounter (I seem to recall there are 13 strains?) make tank transfer the logical alternative. The treatment for velvet using CP is only 14 days and that is the longest chemical contact period I feel is safe.