Quarantine for a month - but it wasn't enough

[kenpau]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

We each have our own opinion as to what stressed is I suppose. I can just say from my experiences the fishes do not seem to be stressed and freaked out while in TT or QT.

I'm only suggesting that the actual transfer of fish during TTM is not stress free, in my experience after an hour or so the fish have calmed again and will start feeding, however I haven't tried TTM with sensitive species.

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

Life cycle of certain diseases, especially ones masked by copper in the holding tanks at the LFS.

This 72 day statement is starting to get thrown around more and more now with absolutely no thought behind the individual case.....'go 72 days fallow'......'QT for 72 days'......'do TTM for 72 days' etc
72 days is the suggested fallow period for marine ich in a DT, it was found in ONE test to be the maximum amount of days ONE strain of ich can survive without a host. It was done in test conditions and can not prove 100% that ich will absolutely definitely be gone on the 72nd day, it has no bearing at all on length of QT time for fish.
If you quarantine for 72 days and the fish is a carrier of ich then the disease is not going to die off after 72 days....in fact it is far more likely that the fish dies within those 72 days if no action is taken. If we are talking about signs of ich then a fish can be a carrier and present no signs at all, even for the hallowed 72 days, at least this is what I understand from posts I have read on here, it is prevalent on the inside of gills apparently.
People's school of thought changes on the period of time for QT, from 4 weeks to 8 weeks normally. However the OP used TTM as a preventive measure so there should have been no ich present if executed correctly, then a 4 week QT period to monitor for other diseases should be sufficient as Snorvich mentioned.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by kenpau

Hmm.....this is purely speculative in my opinion.

Well, having done it about 30+ times, it is not speculative rather observational.

[snorvich]

Copper below a therapeutic dose either intentionally or accidentally will mask many parasites. Many LFS run copper in their fish system in order to keep their fish looking healthy. Fish need to be in water that does not have chemicals such as copper for at least 4 weeks after TTM if you want them to exhibit potential symptoms which would then determine what treatment they should receive. So the obvious question that I so often hear, why not just observe for 4 weeks and then decide to treat? The answer is that cryptocaryon irritans does not always exhibit visible symptoms early on in their exposure to it as it initially resides most often in the gills.

[kenpau]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Well, having done it about 30+ times, it is not speculative rather observational.

Yes that would have been a better way of me wording it. My point being that stress produces signs and symptoms, all we can see are the signs. Until the day fish can talk to us there is no way of knowing any symptoms that a fish has developed due to stress.

[firemountain]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Copper below a therapeutic dose either intentionally or accidentally will mask many parasites. Many LFS run copper in their fish system in order to keep their fish looking healthy. Fish need to be in water that does not have chemicals such as copper for at least 4 weeks after TTM if you want them to exhibit potential symptoms which would then determine what treatment they should receive. So the obvious question that I so often hear, why not just observe for 4 weeks and then decide to treat? The answer is that cryptocaryon irritans does not always exhibit visible symptoms early on in their exposure to it as it initially resides most often in the gills.

Steve brings up a HUGE point. In my LFS, the regular tanks that house fish only, all share the same water source through universal plumbing. In those thanks they run low level copper, and keep their SG lower, like 1.021.

With their reef tanks, each tank is plumbed separately and they don't run copper, and keep their parameters NSW levels. Needless to say if I buy a fish from the reef tank, I know I don't have to worry about a copper treated fish, with the potentiall to have various diseases masked,

[ZeeSparrow]

Just received confirmation from the LFS where I bought the clowns that they do not run copper in their tanks.

[Marchillo]

Did you use all separate equipment while doing TTM

The tank, filter, termometer, and pvc are all obvious.

How about thermometer. How bout it you fill a cup with tank water to feed? How about the pipet use use to extract water for test kits and refractometer.

This is all stuff that I kept realizing as I was going through the TTM process.

[tmz]

Stringy poo usually indicates intestinal worms; hard to erradcate and sometimes slow to kill. Splotchy could be flukes or brooklynella. Prazi should handle flukes but is not always effective on intestinal worms. If it was broolynella it would usually kill them faster than your experience but changing conditions may have slowed it down As you know tank transfer does nothing for any of those maladies.

I think 1 month qt after tank transfer is sufficient; longer is fine. 72 days realtes to the fishless period required for a tank with cryptocaryon irritans.

I'd be careful not to overdo Prime dosing.

There have been some unexplained reports of fish deaths with some floss materials in play. Not likely the issue but worth a note.

IME , tank transfer can be easily done without much "stress "relative to other methods.


I've used it regularly for a long time and for many species of fish including delicate specimens. They don't seem to mind it much all as evidenced in their behavior and feeding observations .

The brief stay lessens the chance of ammonia issues. Avoiding drip acclimation in a bag water is another big plus.

Some ways to make it more comfortable:

Gentle netless transfer when possible.

Matched water parameters from tank to tank,obiously.
Hiding/ resting places ;pvc sponge material etc.
Layout the transfer tanks with similar resting places and any other landscaping.
Bubble up filters provide the sponge surface for soem fish like manadarins they like to peck food form the surface.
A bowl of sand for fish that need to bury is helpful.

[ZeeSparrow]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Did you use all separate equipment while doing TTM

The tank, filter, termometer, and pvc are all obvious.

How about thermometer. How bout it you fill a cup with tank water to feed? How about the pipet use use to extract water for test kits and refractometer.

This is all stuff that I kept realizing as I was going through the TTM process.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I used two different tanks (plus a bucket), thermometers, 2 pvc per tank, new airstone and airline every transfer. I did not use a filter during TTM, just in final QT. The cup for food (when used - sometimes not used for pellets) was the same cup used to transfer fish to next tank, then left to dry with rest of equipment. I did not test water during TTM, except for salinity beforehand, which was either new water or from the DT as I mentioned earlier. I washed and dried my hands after I did anything in QT, before even looking at the DT.

With one exception. I remembered this morning while doing water changes that there was a time during TTM where the water the clowns went into was high salinity for approximately one hour. They went from 1.026 to 1.040. I had forgotten to check and did so repeatedly while bringing it back down to 1.026 via water changes with fresh RODI. That would have been.... the 3rd 'tank' (after second transfer) so there were two more transfers that followed plus the 16 days in QT. That is the ONE thing that went wrong during the whole process. The only thing I remember being 'off'. As for the pipette, I half filled it with tap water, shook it and rinsed out then left it sit to dry for 3 days before I used it again.

Originally Posted by tmz

Stringy poo usually indicates intestinal worms; hard to erradcate and sometimes slow to kill. Splotchy could be flukes or brooklynella. Prazi should handle flukes but is not always effective on intestinal worms. If it was broolynella it would usually kill them faster than your experience but changing conditions may have slowed it down As you know tank transfer does nothing for any of those maladies.

I think 1 month qt after tank transfer is sufficient; longer is fine. 72 days realtes to the fishless period required for a tank with cryptocaryon irritans.

I'd be careful not to overdo Prime dosing.

There have been some unexplained reports of fish deaths with some floss materials in play. Not likely the issue but worth a note.

IME , tank transfer can be easily done without much "stress "relative to other methods.


I've used it regularly for a long time and for many species of fish including delicate specimens. They don't seem to mind it much all as evidenced in their behavior and feeding observations .

The brief stay lessens the chance of ammonia issues. Avoiding drip acclimation in a bag water is another big plus.

Some ways to make it more comfortable:

Gentle netless transfer when possible.

Matched water parameters from tank to tank,obiously.
Hiding/ resting places ;pvc sponge material etc.
Layout the transfer tanks with similar resting places and any other landscaping.
Bubble up filters provide the sponge surface for soem fish like manadarins they like to peck food form the surface.
A bowl of sand for fish that need to bury is helpful.

Thanks TMZ.

I don't think I mentioned previously but I did not drip acclimate. Salinity was matched, temp acclimated and direct to tank (with as little water from the bags as possible). Netted from bag to tank, and for first transfer... used cup for all subsequent transfers. Cup is easier and seems a whole lot less stressful for the fish and for me.

Prime overdosing? I did not realize that was possible!

... quick research leads me to the following quote from seachem in 2009:

All water conditioners are reducing agents; reducing agents will "reduce" whatever is available within the aquarium. For example, it reduces chlorine(Cl2) to two separate chloride molecules. Though the potential to reduce oxygen is there with any reducing agent, this is very, very rare. Prime can be safely overdosed up to five times the recommended amount in an emergency situation. Doing so is very safe, and it would take a massive overdose to have any effect on the oxygen levels in the tank. Because Prime only works for 24-48 hours, its effects do not build up over time.

I used 1-2x dose of Prime during TTM, then a 2x dose in QT on occasion. TTM had an airstone; QT had both an airstone and HOB.

The biggest lesson out of this for me is to QT for a minimum of six weeks, and at least two weeks after completing any treatment. Had I left the clowns in QT for six weeks, perhaps the outcome would have been different.

Then again, maybe there's something lurking in my DT and my fish are doomed until I identify it and eradicate it. Or maybe it's something else. Little clown is still doing well though.

[gone fishin]

There have been some very good points and observations made. Perhaps it was nothing you did or anything ominous in the DT, it was just the little guys time.

If your other clown is still doing fine in a couple weeks I would speculate it is nothing in your DT.

[ZeeSparrow]

Let's hope that's the case. Thanks everyone! I appreciate the discussion.