Please Help and Advise

[oceandreamer]

I purchased a gorgeous Blonde Nasso last week, it had been on hold for me for a month and was eating well. Brought it home and it was eating well, until yesterday, it had some blotches but not spots like ich, I figured it was a bit stressed as my wrasse was "panting" as well. I checked all my parameters and I was low on PH and high on nitrites, I performed a partial, adjusted PH and cleaned filters. I did add PRIME and my nitrites are falling, I check every 6 hrs or so. Now the poor nasso is really not doing well but everyone else is swimming happily. We purchased a hippo tang 2 mos ago and lost it just as rapidly, in the same fasion. Great for 4-5 days then sudden crash. I am confused and need advice.

TANK
175gal
125+ live rock
100+ live sand abot 2.5- 3'' thick
C530 Marineland Canister
2Lg wave makesr
2 300watt heaters
UV steralizer
FOWLR
1 humu trigger, 1 Sailfin tang, 1 yellow tang, 4 Chromis, 1 bird wrasse, 1 marble wrasse, 2 firefish, 1 sgt major, 1 blue velvet, 1 three line,, 2 yellow tails, 1 valentini puffer, 2 clarki clowns, 1 coral beauty, 5 various starfish, 1 urchin, 1 emerald crab a handful of hermits and a few snails that are left.

Salinity 1.023
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 1.5ppm
Nitrates 40ppm

[jminick2]

Firstly I'm gonna ask is this is for real, because you have either done no research what so ever or this is a troll post.....


your tank is cycling if you have nitrites the ammonia reading is 0 because u are adding prime, you need to rethink what you are doing here man. you should absolutely not be adding fish at this point. it is going to be an uphill battle keeping your fish alive from this point. I would try to rehome or return all the fish and do some research ASAP.

[Marchillo]

How old is the tank? You should have no nitrites. Seems like a lot of tangs for that size. Not enough sand or rock. The general rule is 1 pound per gallon. I've got 100 #s of sand and 80#s of rock in my 80 gallon tank.

You have a canister but no skimmer? And your rock and sand are too low. I'm certainly not an expert but bioload compared to filtration ability seems very insufficient.

[Marchillo]

How often do you clean the canister? I do mine once a week on my 40 but I also have a skimmer, 40#s rock/sand and a small bioload.

[gone fishin]

just a guess with the current info but I would say bio-filtration is to low with the amount of fishes that you have.

I will assume you have not QT anything so that also opens the door for number of possibilities. Good luck

[Cosmojo]

Ibtl

[ericarenee]

First i would take some water to LFS and have them test it...

My Guess.

1 Your test kit is not accurate . reading error or testing error
2 The tangs are Killing each other and your not seeing it..
3. I have no idea what i am talking about... (ohh this one not likely)
4. If your tank is 2 months old . Its not mature enough for such a Delicate fish as a Power blue or any Tank For that matter in my opinion...

Ohh i also think your filtration is pushed beyond its limits... Back to number 1...For accurate and doubled checked results ...

[dustinkimpel]

Well fist off get rid of that canaster man! Your going to have a hard time keeping it clean. I'm with everyone else saying your tank doesn't sound cycled...

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by gone fishin

just a guess with the current info but I would say bio-filtration is to low with the amount of fishes that you have.

I will assume you have not QT anything so that also opens the door for number of possibilities. Good luck

1+

One of my many guesses .

[ericarenee]

Originally Posted by dustinkimpel

Well fist off get rid of that canaster man! Your going to have a hard time keeping it clean. I'm with everyone else saying your tank doesn't sound cycled...

You can keep a fowlr tank easily with a correctly sized and well maintained Canister.... Just not one with such a high bio load in such a short time..

Tank maturity is in dead playing a role here in my opinion..

[gone fishin]

As Erica pointed out some tangs can get quiet aggressive and territorial. You have a lot of large, or will be large, and aggressive fish in your tank.

After pondering a bit longer I believe you troubles may stem from multiple issues.

over stocked

not enough bio filtration

Aggression

possible illness introduced

[oceandreamer]

oceandreamer;23912550]I purchased a gorgeous Blonde Nasso last week, it had been on hold for me for a month and was eating well. Brought it home and it was eating well, until yesterday, it had some blotches but not spots like ich, I figured it was a bit stressed as my wrasse was "panting" as well. I checked all my parameters and I was low on PH and high on nitrites, I performed a partial, adjusted PH and cleaned filters. I did add PRIME and my nitrites are falling, I check every 6 hrs or so. Now the poor nasso is really not doing well but everyone else is swimming happily. We purchased a hippo tang 2 mos ago and lost it just as rapidly, in the same fasion. Great for 4-5 days then sudden crash. I am confused and need advice.

TANK
175gal
125+ live rock
100+ live sand abot 2.5- 3'' thick
C530 Marineland Canister
2Lg wave makesr
2 300watt heaters
UV steralizer
FOWLR
1 humu trigger, 1 Sailfin tang, 1 yellow tang, 4 Chromis, 1 bird wrasse, 1 marble wrasse, 2 firefish, 1 sgt major, 1 blue velvet, 1 three line,, 2 yellow tails, 1 valentini puffer, 2 clarki clowns, 1 coral beauty, 5 various starfish, 1 urchin, 1 emerald crab a handful of hermits and a few snails that are left.

Salinity 1.023
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 1.5ppm
Nitrates 40ppm[/QUOTE]

[oceandreamer]

Originally Posted by jminick2

Firstly I'm gonna ask is this is for real, because you have either done no research what so ever or this is a troll post.....


your tank is cycling if you have nitrites the ammonia reading is 0 because u are adding prime, you need to rethink what you are doing here man. you should absolutely not be adding fish at this point. it is going to be an uphill battle keeping your fish alive from this point. I would try to rehome or return all the fish and do some research ASAP.

I added prime after the spike in nitrates, prior I tested and LFS tested and all was good. I am seriously asking for help figuring this out. It probably is my filtration, even though its cleaned regularly and my tank was cycled for 2 mos prior to adding cleaners or damsels. Its been full of fish for 6 mos, just have had bad luck with bigger fish. Like I said everything else is great. I did not qt at the advice of my LFS guy due to the size of my qt tank being to small.

[oceandreamer]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

How often do you clean the canister? I do mine once a week on my 40 but I also have a skimmer, 40#s rock/sand and a small bioload.

Weekly, I guess all my research and LFS people were wrong for our filtration needs. hard lessons to learn, wish it wasn't at the loss of such beautiful creatures

[jminick2]

Originally Posted by oceandreamer

I added prime after the spike in nitrates, prior I tested and LFS tested and all was good. I am seriously asking for help figuring this out. It probably is my filtration, even though its cleaned regularly and my tank was cycled for 2 mos prior to adding cleaners or damsels. Its been full of fish for 6 mos, just have had bad luck with bigger fish. Like I said everything else is great. I did not qt at the advice of my LFS guy due to the size of my qt tank being to small.

prime does nothing for nitrates, only ammonia, I'm gonna say you don't actually have nitrites like you said in orignal post, your tank has been set up too long for that to be plausible. I don't think it's your filtration 40ppm nitrate isn't squat and if you had a serious filtration problem you would have very bad algae problems and nitrates way higher than that. could be velvet could be something else but your problem is probably a sickness with the fish tangs are known for it.

[oceandreamer]

Originally Posted by jminick2

prime does nothing for nitrates, only ammonia, I'm gonna say you don't actually have nitrites like you said in orignal post, your tank has been set up too long for that to be plausible. I don't think it's your filtration 40ppm nitrate isn't squat and if you had a serious filtration problem you would have very bad algae problems and nitrates way higher than that.

Thanks its all kinda mind boggling

[Sk8r]

What might help is a very massive file we have above---in the stickies: it's called SETTING UP, which you're beyond, but it has all sorts of detail about water balance, aeration, etc, which may have in it something that will be an answer.

[davocean]

Sounds like you have been given some not to great of advice from LFS(this happens a lot)
and looks like you are fairly new here, a much better source for advice and info.
I would stop all fish purchases at this time, hold off until you figure things out and make sure you are set up properly.
Post pics of tank and gear and lets see if we can get you on track.
If you have any mechanical filtration or media in that canister I would begin pulling that out, maybe half, another half a week later, that could possibly begin a drop in your nitrates right there, not that 40ppm is real bad, but you don't want to go up.
Use the canister to just push water, you may want more/better flow later.
Start a build thread if you don't have one here.
Don't beat yourself up, just slow down and ask questions here, many have been where you are right now, it gets better usually.

[Quiet_Ivy]

Originally Posted by jminick2

prime does nothing for nitrates, only ammonia, I'm gonna say you don't actually have nitrites like you said in orignal post, your tank has been set up too long for that to be plausible. I don't think it's your filtration 40ppm nitrate isn't squat and if you had a serious filtration problem you would have very bad algae problems and nitrates way higher than that. could be velvet could be something else but your problem is probably a sickness with the fish tangs are known for it.

Nitrate isn't toxic to fish unless it's in the 100s. Nitrite isn't as bad as in freshwater, either. Which is nice since everything in saltwater seems to be more dire than fresh.

The OP may very well have nitrites; adding a big tang spiked ammonia, which is being transformed into nitrite slowly. You know that everything you add to a tank causes a "mini-cycle", yes? Ideally there is excess bacterial capacity, and the extra ammonia is dealt with as with the current fish, but adding a surprise big fish to a borderline-overloaded tank is trouble. People tend to talk about THE nitrogen cycle as if it only happens once, this isn't the case.

hth
ivy

[Quiet_Ivy]

Originally Posted by davocean

Post pics of tank and gear and lets see if we can get you on track.
If you have any mechanical filtration or media in that canister I would begin pulling that out, maybe half, another half a week later, that could possibly begin a drop in your nitrates right there, not that 40ppm is real bad, but you don't want to go up.
.

Davocean, I see you are a ROTM..but do you really think the OP should pull filtration when their tank is showing clear signs of inadequate biofilter? They've already got ammonia and nitrites, pulling the media will make this worse. Absolutely they should do something about nitrates but *not* right this second.

Nobody's suggested water changes..how about some water changing?

hth
Ivy

[jminick2]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy

Nitrate isn't toxic to fish unless it's in the 100s. Nitrite isn't as bad as in freshwater, either. Which is nice since everything in saltwater seems to be more dire than fresh.

The OP may very well have nitrites; adding a big tang spiked ammonia, which is being transformed into nitrite slowly. You know that everything you add to a tank causes a "mini-cycle", yes? Ideally there is excess bacterial capacity, and the extra ammonia is dealt with as with the current fish, but adding a surprise big fish to a borderline-overloaded tank is trouble. People tend to talk about THE nitrogen cycle as if it only happens once, this isn't the case.

hth
ivy

not sure why you quoted me, but you do not undergo a mini cycle when u add a fish, you MAY if you had several fish at once but one fish is absolutely not going to cause a mini cycle. excess bacteria is not the source of people not having mini cycles everytime their bioload increases or they feed too much, it is "established" bacteria. if you have an established bacteria colony I promise that you will NEVER see a mini cycle by adding one fish that Is the beauty of bacteria is multiplies so rapidly to adjust to things like this, other wise we would have fish with ammonia poisoning every day we over fed or a snail died ect.

[nmotz]

Any time nitrites are detectable on a hobbyist level test kit, it's probably worth it to assume that additional biological filtration is needed. Here's a list of things to investigate (some already mentioned):

- Even for a large tank like yours, you have lots of large fish that are producing a lot of waste. It's *generally* best for new aquarists like yourself to utilize rules of thumb when it comes to how much LR to use in your tank. In general, the rule is somewhere between 1-2 lbs/gallon of water. You have 175 gallons of water and only 125 pounds of rock. You might need at least 50-100 pounds more LR. Actually if it were me, I'd add 50-100 pounds of DRY rock because adding that much LR now might cause a mini-cycle and you don't want that.

- Sometimes biological filtration is stunted by a lack of strong flow in the tank, especially a large tank. Increasing the flow in your tank can allow your LR to more effectively filter the nitrites. Put a couple strong powerheads (1000GPH+) on your tank. Point at least one powerhead upward to create surface agitation. This will also help oxygenate the tank and stabilize your pH.

- Save up and get a good skimmer if you don't already have one. Resist the temptation to buy cheap, that's just a waste of money. There are good reviews for several hang-on-back skimmers including some of the Reef Octopus and Aquamaxx models. For a tank your size, however, a sump and an in-sump protein skimmer would probably have been a more efficient option.

- Some people insist on QTing, some people don't. Because you are new to this, I would recommend QTing. Then, later on if you are more comfortable you can consider not QTing. Think of it this way....you are spending a lot of money on fish that keep dying. Why not spend a little on a properly sized QT and ultimately save money by not introducing sick fish to your tank?

Hope this helps!

[davocean]

Originally Posted by Quiet_Ivy

Davocean, I see you are a ROTM..but do you really think the OP should pull filtration when their tank is showing clear signs of inadequate biofilter? They've already got ammonia and nitrites, pulling the media will make this worse. Absolutely they should do something about nitrates but *not* right this second.

Nobody's suggested water changes..how about some water changing?

hth
Ivy

The reason I suggested pulling media from OP's canister is because usually that is a source of higher nitrates, as I mentioned.
There is a lot of speculation going on right now, that is why I said post pics so we can see what OP has for filtration, among other things.
Sounds like they may be lacking in biofiltration which would be different from mechanical filtration and media.
While my first thought is stop adding any livestock, I agree, WC's are pretty much always beneficial in just about any negative situation.

I agree w/ Nmotz comments as well