Jetting Water Under Substrate to Remove Detritus?

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 09:14 AM

I am planning another build. I am considering laying a series of pipes with holes under the substrate, with holes directed toward the bottom of the tank, and occasionally jetting water gently out under the substrate to raise detritus out of the substrate.

Has anyone else done this? If so, how well did it work?

Thanks.

CStrickland · 09/14/2015, 09:24 AM

There is a scheme called rugf (reverse under gravel filtration) that uses plates with holes in them under dolomite gravel to basically do this. Although I'm not sure whether it really intends to blow out the detritus or just provide a better denitrification environment. There are a few tanks around that have used them for a while, paulb and Jason429 (or something idk the right number after the name) come to mind.

Also spray bars across the top of substrate were common for a while, like a "closed loop system" for the sump. But the powerheads now are cheap and strong so more people are separating tank-flow from their sump returns (you can still make a spray bar off a dedicated pump instead of your return too, but ph's are more flexible and don't clog). So that method is more like never letting it settle in the first place and using a finer sand so if it does it stays on the surface.

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 09:38 AM

RUGF is pretty much the concept I have in mind, except using a manifold series of pipes laying flush on the bottom of the tank instead of the old UGF-type plates. I like burrowers such as jawfish and gobies, so substrate would be on the finer side than gravel/dolomite/crushed coral, so concern is clogging of holes and/or creating a mess in the tank when jetting the water to clean the substrate.

laga77 · 09/14/2015, 10:10 AM

I just set up a RUGF in my new QT. IMHO, you will be better off using the plates and not the manifold. Bigger chance of clogged opening in pipes with manifold than plates.

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 10:16 AM

Are folks using the age-old standard UGF plates available from, e.g., Petco, or fabbing their own? Will the standard ones out there support a fine substrate (e.g., sugar-grain or slightly coarser) without it falling all down into the space beneath it? Any other problems encountered with such a setup?

Reefstarter2 · 09/14/2015, 10:24 AM

Why not just gravel vac the substrate? I do every water change can't figure why people complicate this

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 10:28 AM

Because I don't intend to gravel-vac a 220. . . . . which ends up pulling up a ton of the substrate with the detritus. And the water change will be implemented by draining sump directly into house drain system instead of pulling bucket by bucket of water out of the display (e.g., via gravel vac). Not sure why you would consider that complicating the matter. . . . .

Reeferz412 · 09/14/2015, 10:37 AM

I believe PaulB, the 40+ year old reef tank veteran here has a reverse under gravel filter which might be something you will want to look into. He has a few threads about it on here.

I'd say to just get some large pacific nassarius and some fighting conches to dig around the sandbed.

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 10:41 AM

I'll check those out.

Re snails and conches (and sifting stars, etc.), which I've used in the past, my motivation to implement such a system is the mind-boggling amount of dirt I pull out when I do a water change on my 12-gallon setup, where I remove all rock -- beauty of a small setup! -- to another tank along with half the water, then thoroughly stir the substrate to bring up the dirt/detritus. Even with a water change every other week, it is amazing how filthy the water becomes after stirring the substrate. Then again, however, there is no sump or skimmer and just a hang-on filter for aeration/water turn-over, so EVERYTHING that goes into the tank stays there till I clean.

In any event, thanks for the info.

Ken

(FYI, the tank I have found available is a 220 Starfire from Miracles for just over a grand with stand, apparently never used. . . . . .. can't wait to go see it. . . . . . . . .)

Bent · 09/14/2015, 01:44 PM

I ran a RUGF in my old FOWLR and I miss it truthfully. I had a ton of water moving through it as well, and the substrate had to be a bit on the thick side to keep the dust down. It really did a good job of keeping the detritus suspended, and Im really kicking myself for not doing it this time.

My next buid I am setting one one up off the return pump. I never had any burrowing critters like jaws in that one, so Im not sure just how much it would effect them. I wouldnt hesitate to do it over.

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 01:47 PM

My plan is to pump water through there intermittently, not constantly, to bring up the detritus then let water column take it out via the overflow. Not a real strong burst of flow, either, just enough to raise the junk.

Bent · 09/14/2015, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kengar

My plan is to pump water through there intermittently, not constantly, to bring up the detritus then let water column take it out via the overflow. Not a real strong burst of flow, either, just enough to raise the junk.

why not just run it all the time? IMO it would be more effective that way. If run constant, the detritus wouldnt even have a chance to settle.

Kengar · 09/14/2015, 02:04 PM

To avoid disturbing burrowers.

Bent · 09/14/2015, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kengar

To avoid disturbing burrowers.

Ahhh.

Are we sure it will disturb them? I guess it would depend on the flow amount.

Anyone care to do a experiment?

laga77 · 09/14/2015, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kengar

Are folks using the age-old standard UGF plates available from, e.g., Petco,

Yes

FishNFun · 09/14/2015, 02:55 PM

I was using this same thing back in the 80's when I had my first saltwater tank. Worked then so I assume it would work now.

09/14/2015, 09:14 AM	#1
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	Jetting Water Under Substrate to Remove Detritus? I am planning another build. I am considering laying a series of pipes with holes under the substrate, with holes directed toward the bottom of the tank, and occasionally jetting water gently out under the substrate to raise detritus out of the substrate. Has anyone else done this? If so, how well did it work? Thanks. __________________ Resident Patent Attorney

09/14/2015, 09:24 AM	#2
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	There is a scheme called rugf (reverse under gravel filtration) that uses plates with holes in them under dolomite gravel to basically do this. Although I'm not sure whether it really intends to blow out the detritus or just provide a better denitrification environment. There are a few tanks around that have used them for a while, paulb and Jason429 (or something idk the right number after the name) come to mind. Also spray bars across the top of substrate were common for a while, like a "closed loop system" for the sump. But the powerheads now are cheap and strong so more people are separating tank-flow from their sump returns (you can still make a spray bar off a dedicated pump instead of your return too, but ph's are more flexible and don't clog). So that method is more like never letting it settle in the first place and using a finer sand so if it does it stays on the surface. __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

09/14/2015, 09:38 AM	#3
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	RUGF is pretty much the concept I have in mind, except using a manifold series of pipes laying flush on the bottom of the tank instead of the old UGF-type plates. I like burrowers such as jawfish and gobies, so substrate would be on the finer side than gravel/dolomite/crushed coral, so concern is clogging of holes and/or creating a mess in the tank when jetting the water to clean the substrate. __________________ Resident Patent Attorney

09/14/2015, 10:10 AM	#4
laga77 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Alsip, IL Posts: 1,133	I just set up a RUGF in my new QT. IMHO, you will be better off using the plates and not the manifold. Bigger chance of clogged opening in pipes with manifold than plates. __________________ Four legs good. Two legs better. Current Tank Info: 50G SPS/NPS Reef, 120G Mixed Reef, 120G FOWRL, 29G Seahorse tank, 20G Observation tank,

09/14/2015, 10:16 AM	#5
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	Are folks using the age-old standard UGF plates available from, e.g., Petco, or fabbing their own? Will the standard ones out there support a fine substrate (e.g., sugar-grain or slightly coarser) without it falling all down into the space beneath it? Any other problems encountered with such a setup? __________________ Resident Patent Attorney Last edited by Kengar; 09/14/2015 at 10:23 AM.

09/14/2015, 10:24 AM	#6
Reefstarter2 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 295	Why not just gravel vac the substrate? I do every water change can't figure why people complicate this

09/14/2015, 10:28 AM	#7
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	Because I don't intend to gravel-vac a 220. . . . . which ends up pulling up a ton of the substrate with the detritus. And the water change will be implemented by draining sump directly into house drain system instead of pulling bucket by bucket of water out of the display (e.g., via gravel vac). Not sure why you would consider that complicating the matter. . . . . __________________ Resident Patent Attorney

09/14/2015, 10:37 AM	#8
Reeferz412 Coral Hoarder Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,247	I believe PaulB, the 40+ year old reef tank veteran here has a reverse under gravel filter which might be something you will want to look into. He has a few threads about it on here. I'd say to just get some large pacific nassarius and some fighting conches to dig around the sandbed. __________________ Alex FMAS Member Current Tank Info: 400 Gallons of frags... 30 gallon Deep Blue mixed reef ... 70 other tanks throughout south FL

09/14/2015, 10:41 AM	#9
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	I'll check those out. Re snails and conches (and sifting stars, etc.), which I've used in the past, my motivation to implement such a system is the mind-boggling amount of dirt I pull out when I do a water change on my 12-gallon setup, where I remove all rock -- beauty of a small setup! -- to another tank along with half the water, then thoroughly stir the substrate to bring up the dirt/detritus. Even with a water change every other week, it is amazing how filthy the water becomes after stirring the substrate. Then again, however, there is no sump or skimmer and just a hang-on filter for aeration/water turn-over, so EVERYTHING that goes into the tank stays there till I clean. In any event, thanks for the info. Ken (FYI, the tank I have found available is a 220 Starfire from Miracles for just over a grand with stand, apparently never used. . . . . .. can't wait to go see it. . . . . . . . .) __________________ Resident Patent Attorney

09/14/2015, 01:44 PM	#10
Bent I got nothin' Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The anals Posts: 6,420	I ran a RUGF in my old FOWLR and I miss it truthfully. I had a ton of water moving through it as well, and the substrate had to be a bit on the thick side to keep the dust down. It really did a good job of keeping the detritus suspended, and Im really kicking myself for not doing it this time. My next buid I am setting one one up off the return pump. I never had any burrowing critters like jaws in that one, so Im not sure just how much it would effect them. I wouldnt hesitate to do it over. __________________ Quitters never lose. [QUOTE=CStrickland]Who gets mad at a starfish?[/QUOTE] Current Tank Info: 75g DT, 30G refugium, 10g chaeto tank, 50g stock tank basement sump

09/14/2015, 01:47 PM	#11
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	My plan is to pump water through there intermittently, not constantly, to bring up the detritus then let water column take it out via the overflow. Not a real strong burst of flow, either, just enough to raise the junk. __________________ Resident Patent Attorney

09/14/2015, 02:04 PM	#13
Kengar Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gaithersburg, MD (D.C. Metro Area) Posts: 1,970	To avoid disturbing burrowers. __________________ Resident Patent Attorney

09/14/2015, 02:55 PM	#16
FishNFun Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 521	I was using this same thing back in the 80's when I had my first saltwater tank. Worked then so I assume it would work now.