~Help~!-Dead Clowns & Damsel (C.o.D. unkown)

bfgm · 11/24/2015, 07:31 PM

Introduction:
Hi, I'm new to these forums, but not to fishkeeping. I've kept freshwater for years with no problems. However after careful research I've taken the dive into saltwater. If you wish not to read the entire post but still want to contribute, feel free to read the "TL;DR" section.

Aquarium Setup:

Tank: 20 Gallon High (24x12x16)
Filter: Marineland Penguin Bio-wheel 150b
Light: T8 15w 6500, Blue LED 2w. (17w total)
Heater: 50w Tetra (auto adjusted to 75F)
LR: 20 Lbs. (Pre-cured from LFS Aquarium)
LS: 20 Lbs. Caribsea.
Aeration: Bubblestone.

------

Water Parameters:

Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-Less than 5
Salinity-1.027
PH-8.1
Cycle Process: Mini-Cycle. (LR was already fully established for over a year and was kept wet while transported from LFS to my DT.
Acclimation: 20 minute bag float, 25 minute drip acclimation.
--------

TL;DR: -

1st Week:
Purchased all equipment listed above, and a Damselfish for the mini-cycle. Damselfish died 2 days later. Water params were: Ammonia-.50, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-5-, Salinity- 1.027. Damsel color was only faded. Did not appear like normal Marine Velvet, Brook, or Ich.

2nd Week:
Purchased Cleaner Shrimp, 3 Turbo Snails, and a Nassarius snail. 1+ Month later all are still very happy.

3rd Week: Purchased Clownfish x2 at local Petco (surprisingly good petco). (1x 3" Female, 1x 1.5" Male). 4 Days later male died, with what appeared like white powder covering his body. 2 days later female died. Same appearance on death. Water Params: Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-5+, Salinity 1.027.

Assumption: I want to say the cause of death to the clownfish was Marine Velvet Judging by Google images. However, the Damsel never showed signs of Marine Velvet, but maybe died because of the mini cycle? The cycle only lasted 2-3 days.

Question: Did Marine Velvet kill my fish? Why didn't the Damsel have a white film on its body? Did the Damsel simply die from the "mini-cycle"? Why are all my inverts still alive?

--------------------------

More Details:
The entire setup was purchased brand new in the box. The LR did come pre-cured from the local LFS and was kept wet while transporting 20 minutes away. Prior to the death of the Damsel fish he did show labored breathing, and began hiding in rock crevices. To me this looked similar to the way fish act when ammonia levels are present (ammonia was .50). Damsel did fade some before death, but after death it was 75% faded to white. I returned to the LFS to inspect his stock. Nothing looked like Marine Velvet, although I did notice he kept very very few marine fish. The saltwater tanks were also connected by 1 single sump. (Easily spread contagion).

IMPORTANT to note: At the time of death of the Damselfish, everything that had entered my tank (Damsel too) had come from the same LFS, and nowhere else.

More Details: When purchasing the 2 Clownfish I was much more cautious. I carefully inspected both specimen. Both were very bright and energetic at the store, and in my home. I did notice the young male played at the surface and in the filter outflow a lot. He still looked happy with no signs of discoloration, although he did show very slightly heavy signs of labored breathing. I assumed this was because he was still adjusting to the new tank.

A couple days later I noticed the Female clown was being lethargic in an area with low current. After closer inspection I also noticed what appeared to be white film on the body. The film looked like a light dusting of powder but was very faint (not spotted like ich). I treated the fish immediately with freshwater baths in a desperate attempt to alleviate some of his breathing problems. The baths did seem to give him a boost of energy for a short time after each one. The clown died a couple days later. The white film looked very evident as Marine Velvet in my "Un-experienced opinion". After another visit to the store to inspect the marine livestock all seemed healthy with no signs of sickness or distress. Again these saltwater tanks were also connected with 1 single sump. (Easily Spread Contagion).

Conclusion: My inverts are still alive, and energetic to this day. Why are they alive and my fish are dying? Did I infect my tank with Marine Velvet with the first Damselfish? (No evident signs). Or did the Damsel die of simple stress from the mini cycle, and the clowns were actually the ones who brought in the Marine Velvet? Please help. : /

Thank your time. I know it has been a very lengthy post.

-Andrew

gone fishin · 11/24/2015, 07:38 PM

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2389659

The link has a diagnosis section that may be of use to you. From your description I am inclined to think Brook or velvet, clowns are more prone to brook. As far as the damsel I would think it may have been a casualty of the cycle. I would suggest looking into setting up a quarantine tank for new fishes. Good luck just my two cents.

Shewillbemine · 11/24/2015, 07:40 PM

How long were those fish present at your LFS? I like to know they've spent a couple weeks at the store before I purchase to ensure they've made it through the transport process and don't have imminent diseases from all that movement.

heathlindner25 · 11/24/2015, 07:41 PM

lesson learned, don't buy animals from Petco

bfgm · 11/24/2015, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gone fishin

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2389659

The link has a diagnosis section that may be of use to you. From your description I am inclined to think Brook or velvet, clowns are more prone to brook. As far as the damsel I would think it may have been a casualty of the cycle. I would suggest looking into setting up a quarantine tank for new fishes. Good luck just my two cents.

Thanks for the quick response from you and everyone else. I am checking out the link as we speak, and I am also making arrangements for a quarantine tank. Not letting that happen again. Thanks again for the knowledgeable response.

bfgm · 11/24/2015, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shewillbemine

How long were those fish present at your LFS? I like to know they've spent a couple weeks at the store before I purchase to ensure they've made it through the transport process and don't have imminent diseases from all that movement.

That's pretty good advice. Come to think of it I'm not sure how long the LFS had the fish because they don't keep them very long. But then again, they don't keep many saltwater fish to begin with. I've always had luck with them in the past with freshwater fish, although they aren't really kept the best imo.

BrickFishHouse · 11/24/2015, 08:44 PM

Did I read correctly that your ammonia level was .50?

Deftones2015 · 11/24/2015, 08:53 PM

What does your petco keep their salinity or wherever you bought the fish? 1.027 is a little high for me, I keep mine at 1.025. If the store, like most, keep their salinity at 1.021 or so the change in salinity could have killed your first fish, then possibly introduced the brook or velvet to your tank with the clowns.

Edit: what are you using to measure your salinity? If using a hydrometer or non calibrated refractometer the salinity may be lower or higher.

Deftones2015 · 11/24/2015, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickFishHouse

Did I read correctly that your ammonia level was .50?

I agree, if ammonia was .50 that is crazy high and no wonder fish are dying.

bfgm · 11/24/2015, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deftones2015

I agree, if ammonia was .50 that is crazy high and no wonder fish are dying.

Dang. Didn't realize ammonia was so much more harmful to saltwater fish. Thanks for the heads up. Now I know : /

snorvich · 11/25/2015, 05:09 AM

I would suggest:

+ never cycle a tank with fish
+ SLOW DOWN
+ Develop a quarantine protocol

joshbrookkate · 11/25/2015, 06:58 AM

From one newbie to another - I read and re-read and still refer to the stickies at the top of the "new to the hobby" section of this forum. And I ask lots of questions before I do anything new. There are lots of knowledgeable and helpful reefers on this site.
Good luck and enjoy this challenging and rewarding hobby.
Michelle

bfgm · 11/26/2015, 07:32 PM

Wow, so I just realized that I left out a valuable piece of information /facepalm. The reason that the ammonia was so high was because I hadn't bought all the rock yet. The day after purchasing the Damsel I tested the parameters and realized that the Rock wasn't enough to take care of the ammonia so I went back and bought more. I only had 15lbs to begin with, and added 10lbs the next day. 25 Total pounds which brought Amm, Ni, and Na to zero.

Also having said that, and having identified that the Damsel died of ammonia poisoning. Any thoughts as to what happened to the 2 clowns? (All parameters were in check during that period).

Bogue Chitto · 11/26/2015, 08:18 PM

They could have been sick at the LFS. They may have caught something from the results of the damsels dying. This is a learning process and we have all bought more experience than we anticipated. Just hang in there and take it slow. You will get it going right. The salinity is a little high like Deftones said. Good luck....

bfgm · 11/26/2015, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogue Chitto

They could have been sick at the LFS. They may have caught something from the results of the damsels dying. This is a learning process and we have all bought more experience than we anticipated. Just hang in there and take it slow. You will get it going right. The salinity is a little high like Deftones said. Good luck....

Good point. I've slowly lowered my salinity since reading his comment. Sitting at about 1.023 atm. Having said that..it should probably also be noted that I did about an hour long drip acclimation when inhabitants were introduced. Would the salinity change still be enough to kill them after the careful acclimation? Also, wouldn't it have killed my inverts as well?

I'm not trying to disprove your points. I'm only attempting to learn, and get to the bottom of what happened.

Sk8r · 11/26/2015, 10:45 PM

Step one: before you put any thing into your tank, try to hit the parameters listed in my sig line. They're a bit fussy, which is a good thing, and will tend to make your fish happy and corals, too, ---it happens to be a good set of parameters for large polyp stony coral---if you decide to have any.
Step two: try tank transfer on new fish and process them thoroughly through preventative procedures: consult Fish Disease threads for specifics.

The combo of really friendly water steadily maintained 24/7 with a 'well' fish will make things run a lot more smoothly.

View Poll Results: What killed my fish?
Damsel brought in Marine Velvet.	1	25.00%
Damsel died from Mini-Cycle, Clowns brought in the Marine Velvet	3	75.00%
Other	1	25.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 4. You may not vote on this poll

11/24/2015, 07:31 PM	#1
bfgm Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 14	~Help~!-Dead Clowns & Damsel (C.o.D. unkown) *Introduction:* Hi, I'm new to these forums, but not to fishkeeping. I've kept freshwater for years with no problems. However after careful research I've taken the dive into saltwater. If you wish not to read the entire post but still want to contribute, feel free to read the "TL;DR" section. *Aquarium Setup:* Tank: 20 Gallon High (24x12x16) Filter: Marineland Penguin Bio-wheel 150b Light: T8 15w 6500, Blue LED 2w. (17w total) Heater: 50w Tetra (auto adjusted to 75F) LR: 20 Lbs. (Pre-cured from LFS Aquarium) LS: 20 Lbs. Caribsea. Aeration: Bubblestone. ------ *Water Parameters:* Ammonia-0 Nitrite-0 Nitrate-Less than 5 Salinity-1.027 PH-8.1 Cycle Process: Mini-Cycle. (LR was already fully established for over a year and was kept wet while transported from LFS to my DT. Acclimation: 20 minute bag float, 25 minute drip acclimation. -------- *TL;DR: -* *1st Week:* Purchased all equipment listed above, and a Damselfish for the mini-cycle. Damselfish died 2 days later. Water params were: Ammonia-.50, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-5-, Salinity- 1.027. Damsel color was only faded. Did not appear like normal Marine Velvet, Brook, or Ich. *2nd Week:* Purchased Cleaner Shrimp, 3 Turbo Snails, and a Nassarius snail. 1+ Month later all are still very happy. *3rd Week:* Purchased Clownfish x2 at local Petco (surprisingly good petco). (1x 3" Female, 1x 1.5" Male). 4 Days later male died, with what appeared like white powder covering his body. 2 days later female died. Same appearance on death. Water Params: Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-5+, Salinity 1.027. *Assumption:* I want to say the cause of death to the clownfish was Marine Velvet Judging by Google images. However, the Damsel never showed signs of Marine Velvet, but maybe died because of the mini cycle? The cycle only lasted 2-3 days. *Question:* Did Marine Velvet kill my fish? Why didn't the Damsel have a white film on its body? Did the Damsel simply die from the "mini-cycle"? Why are all my inverts still alive? -------------------------- *More Details:* The entire setup was purchased brand new in the box. The LR did come pre-cured from the local LFS and was kept wet while transporting 20 minutes away. Prior to the death of the Damsel fish he did show labored breathing, and began hiding in rock crevices. To me this looked similar to the way fish act when ammonia levels are present (ammonia was .50). Damsel did fade some before death, but after death it was 75% faded to white. I returned to the LFS to inspect his stock. Nothing looked like Marine Velvet, although I did notice he kept very very few marine fish. The saltwater tanks were also connected by 1 single sump. (Easily spread contagion). *IMPORTANT to note:* At the time of death of the Damselfish, everything that had entered my tank (Damsel too) had come from the same LFS, and nowhere else. *More Details:* When purchasing the 2 Clownfish I was much more cautious. I carefully inspected both specimen. Both were very bright and energetic at the store, and in my home. I did notice the young male played at the surface and in the filter outflow a lot. He still looked happy with no signs of discoloration, although he did show very slightly heavy signs of labored breathing. I assumed this was because he was still adjusting to the new tank. A couple days later I noticed the Female clown was being lethargic in an area with low current. After closer inspection I also noticed what appeared to be white film on the body. The film looked like a light dusting of powder but was very faint (not spotted like ich). I treated the fish immediately with freshwater baths in a desperate attempt to alleviate some of his breathing problems. The baths did seem to give him a boost of energy for a short time after each one. The clown died a couple days later. The white film looked very evident as Marine Velvet in my "Un-experienced opinion". After another visit to the store to inspect the marine livestock all seemed healthy with no signs of sickness or distress. Again these saltwater tanks were also connected with 1 single sump. (Easily Spread Contagion). *Conclusion:* My inverts are still alive, and energetic to this day. Why are they alive and my fish are dying? Did I infect my tank with Marine Velvet with the first Damselfish? (No evident signs). Or did the Damsel die of simple stress from the mini cycle, and the clowns were actually the ones who brought in the Marine Velvet? Please help. : / Thank your time. I know it has been a very lengthy post. -Andrew Last edited by bfgm; 11/24/2015 at 08:01 PM.

11/24/2015, 07:38 PM	#2
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2389659 The link has a diagnosis section that may be of use to you. From your description I am inclined to think Brook or velvet, clowns are more prone to brook. As far as the damsel I would think it may have been a casualty of the cycle. I would suggest looking into setting up a quarantine tank for new fishes. Good luck just my two cents. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

11/25/2015, 05:09 AM	#11
snorvich Team RC member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Outlander Posts: 40,953 Blog Entries: 46	I would suggest: + never cycle a tank with fish + SLOW DOWN + Develop a quarantine protocol __________________ Warmest regards, ~Steve~

11/26/2015, 10:45 PM	#16
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Step one: before you put any thing into your tank, try to hit the parameters listed in my sig line. They're a bit fussy, which is a good thing, and will tend to make your fish happy and corals, too, ---it happens to be a good set of parameters for large polyp stony coral---if you decide to have any. Step two: try tank transfer on new fish and process them thoroughly through preventative procedures: consult Fish Disease threads for specifics. The combo of really friendly water steadily maintained 24/7 with a 'well' fish will make things run a lot more smoothly. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/24/2015, 07:40 PM	#3
Shewillbemine Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 195	How long were those fish present at your LFS? I like to know they've spent a couple weeks at the store before I purchase to ensure they've made it through the transport process and don't have imminent diseases from all that movement.

11/24/2015, 07:41 PM	#4
heathlindner25 Moved On Join Date: May 2012 Location: flowery branch georgia Posts: 3,644	lesson learned, don't buy animals from Petco

11/24/2015, 08:44 PM	#7
BrickFishHouse Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 64	Did I read correctly that your ammonia level was .50?

11/24/2015, 08:53 PM	#8
Deftones2015 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Marion Ohio Posts: 351	What does your petco keep their salinity or wherever you bought the fish? 1.027 is a little high for me, I keep mine at 1.025. If the store, like most, keep their salinity at 1.021 or so the change in salinity could have killed your first fish, then possibly introduced the brook or velvet to your tank with the clowns. Edit: what are you using to measure your salinity? If using a hydrometer or non calibrated refractometer the salinity may be lower or higher.

11/25/2015, 06:58 AM	#12
joshbrookkate Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Windsor, ON Posts: 618	From one newbie to another - I read and re-read and still refer to the stickies at the top of the "new to the hobby" section of this forum. And I ask lots of questions before I do anything new. There are lots of knowledgeable and helpful reefers on this site. Good luck and enjoy this challenging and rewarding hobby. Michelle

11/26/2015, 07:32 PM	#13
bfgm Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 14	Wow, so I just realized that I left out a valuable piece of information /facepalm. The reason that the ammonia was so high was because I hadn't bought all the rock yet. The day after purchasing the Damsel I tested the parameters and realized that the Rock wasn't enough to take care of the ammonia so I went back and bought more. I only had 15lbs to begin with, and added 10lbs the next day. 25 Total pounds which brought Amm, Ni, and Na to zero. Also having said that, and having identified that the Damsel died of ammonia poisoning. Any thoughts as to what happened to the 2 clowns? (All parameters were in check during that period).

11/26/2015, 08:18 PM	#14
Bogue Chitto Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 960	They could have been sick at the LFS. They may have caught something from the results of the damsels dying. This is a learning process and we have all bought more experience than we anticipated. Just hang in there and take it slow. You will get it going right. The salinity is a little high like Deftones said. Good luck....