Going to grow some Chaeto again. Will this light work?

[RobTheReefer]

Originally Posted by shermanator

I would certainly try to get it rotating. Either with a spray bar (the cheap route) or a gyre. (Haha, the idea of a gyre + a Kessil H160 to grow cheato is hilarious from a cost perspective). It'll both decrease trapped detritus and also make sure the far red is hitting the cheato uniformly (660 doesn't penetrate water very far).

Haha. It is ludicrous when you think of it. I can imagine what people are thinking as they read this thread...150w hps, kessils, bml, gyre...lol

It's so damn good at exporting nutrients that you can't help but try to maximize growth at any cost.

Maybe I should have a solar tube installed over my fuge? Florida sun should be great for Chaeto. hahaha

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by outy

The take away should be more wattage grows more algea.

Yes spectrum plays a role as well.


But the perfect sprectrum in 10w CANNOT compete against 150W and a less then perfect spectrum


SO THE REAL TRICK here is matching your systems bio load to proper wattage while maximizing/fine tuning spectrum. This also means less wattage when using best spectrum/color

That's the thing.. No one on here that I've seen really knows the right spectrum. I have talked to and with a few light mfg(including led) and they also have tested the spectrum that grows the best.. And it's not the common 5500k that most people are using.. And certainly not with common every day bulbs.. That was common, along with "red spectrum" being the other commonality..

I do agree completely with the correct spectrum is key.. And the thing with lighting (any kind) is what's in the water.. It is going to feed whatever is condusive and right.. But, and people don't understand and comprehend the "fact" that, your going to, at some point have nuisance algea.. The question i posed to my two buddies is "dude, where do you want it"? Me personally, I'd prefer in my sump.. But that's just me.. I haven't had nuisance algea in my display, " since" i ran high powered lights.. Lol, it's about competition and allocation of resources..

Now, if you've got cyano in your system, heck yeah, any high powered light is going to grow it.. If you've got massive nutrient problems, same there.. It's not rocket science.. And it's not complex like people make it.. And I'm 5 trying to sell sodium lights.. But.. As far as I've seen and experienced, they cannot be matched for export via algea ! Debate all day, but until you've experienced it, honestly, you don't know..

Example: my one buddy has fought and fought an annoying issue with hair algea and a small bit of slime on his overflow boxes.. He asked me "man, I don't get why you don't have any algea in any of your systems, even through start and cycle".. He told me I was nuts for doing the sodium.. All the blah, blah heat, blah, blah spectrum, blah, blah, blah.. Lol.. And that's my boy! I finally convinced this goofball to try the sodium, and guess what.. 3 weeks in, no algea anymore on anything in the display,cheato ball 3 times it's size, his nutrients have plummeted, and he said he's actually, already seeing higher ph after lowering his dosing twice, and more polyp extension.. And his cyano disappeared about two weeks ago. That was the first thing to go.. That, and then his hair algea.. And cheato, nice and dense.. And his temperature, didn't move a lick with it on for 20 hours a day(mine never moved from my 50,my 110, or now, my 180 either.. The wattage is too low).. Lol, he told me two days ago that he is going to build a dedicated cheato tank much like d2.. With a spray bar or bars flowing the cheato multiple ways of he can..

It's really all about what you want.. It's no different than an algea scrubber and the algea that it can grow, and is benefits.. Except, you don't need the additional equipment as far as pumps if you don't want it.. Mine doesn't tumble, never has.. Neither is his, or any of the other people i know(except a few that have lower powered lights) I don't beg it to, because my light is strong enough to reach through the matt of cheato easily..

Now, I do and would love to try a full sized led fixture from one of the aquarium led mfg i spoke with. He tested a 160 watt fixture in which he set the diode array specifically for growing cheato. And he found that it off the 55 diodes, I think only 5 were blue. The rest, all low nm red from what I remember.. And this fixture is equivalent to 250 watts of light. Which is even more than my sodium.. Why haven't i used or purchased it? Simply because i already gave a cheap and effective solution that works well.. That, lol, and I'm inpatient and at the time, didn't want to wait 3 weeks to have it built and delivered.. But, when is time to change the bulb in a few months (another great thing about hid.. Year and a half for sodium), I just may do it.. But i can't imagine what is do with even more cheato growing even faster..

But.. It makes me think of basically "burn off".. The sodium is already literally bombarding the cheato with light.. Out competing other algae.. So i wonder with even more, if it would do like above ground plants and begin literally burning off lower forms of algea( With hydro plants, with enough light in the sun spots, lower forms of algea literally burn away, despite being wet).. Just rambling thoughts.. But a worth while experiment.. So i just may do it..

[outy]

Originally Posted by DamonG

No one on here that I've seen really knows the right spectrum...

5500-6500 is common knowledge. Changing to a different color will only effect growth slightly. It will not multiple growth

Changing wattage effects growth dramatically and can multiply growth in large amounts. Also note lum's is tied to wattage.

And certainly not with common every day bulbs

False.

I just grew a gallon in a week using a cheap old spiral 23w cf house light, that was old and of unknown spectrum

I do agree completely with the correct spectrum is key..

I said the opposite


Wattage is factually key. a 10w bulb with the best possible spectrum will not outgrow a 10k 175w MH light

is what's in the water..

I covered this fully.

Wattage needs to equal water quality.



A heavy feeder who doesn't change water much may need a 100w bulb.
A light feeder may exhaust the nutrients in the water in 3 weeks with a 27w bulb.

If your water is pristine, you mas kill chaeto due to lack of food and no lighting matters.

to try the sodium,

That's just it, high wattage bulbs like that work so well because the more wattage the faster the growth, combine with water quality, you will grow buckets.

The rest, all low nm red from what I remember.. And this fixture is equivalent to 250 watts of light.

So much wattage wasted on this weed lol guy could by some large water changes from electricity bill savings. Then the light would not be needed.



What I hate is being a light feeder, 6 years ago i do a few large water changes, and then it killed my chaeto not having any nutrients.


I'm trying again.

Mine doesn't tumble, never has..

So true. Mine does not and grows fine now.

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by outy

5500-6500 is common knowledge. Changing to a different color will only effect growth slightly. It will not multiple growth

Changing wattage effects growth dramatically and can multiply growth in large amounts. Also note lum's is tied to wattage.





False.

I just grew a gallon in a week using a cheap old spiral 23w cf house light, that was old and of unknown spectrum



I said the opposite


Wattage is factually key. a 10w bulb with the best possible spectrum will not outgrow a 10k 175w MH light



I covered this fully.

Wattage needs to equal water quality.



A heavy feeder who doesn't change water much may need a 100w bulb.
A light feeder may exhaust the nutrients in the water in 3 weeks with a 27w bulb.

If your water is pristine, you mas kill chaeto due to lack of food and no lighting matters.




That's just it, high wattage bulbs like that work so well because the more wattage the faster the growth, combine with water quality, you will grow buckets.



So much wattage wasted on this weed lol guy could by some large water changes from electricity bill savings. Then the light would not be needed.



What I hate is being a light feeder, 6 years ago i do a few large water changes, and then it killed my chaeto not having any nutrients.


I'm trying again.




So true. Mine does not and grows fine now.

Common knowledge among whom? Aquarists that use tiny bulbs? Those that can kill off cheato at the drop of a dime? The same people that say "a fuge is no good unless it's massive"? Being able to sustain a plant says just as much as the growth of the plant.. And you have to know something about plants to use very little nutrient and still maintain accelerated, or even regular growth.. Is not a basic thing that most can wrap their head around..

And i do agree that if you have tons of nutrient, yeah, you can and will grow some of every kind of junk algea under the sun.. But what if you only have trace amounts? What if you have a thriving ulns system full of sps? Full of color? Like i do.. My system is low, low nutrient.. And I mean 0.00 nitrate and phosphorus(not phosphate).. And my cheato grows like it does... Along with the rest of the people I know that maintain sps systems and run these lights.. It is not about massive nutrient that will kill sps or keep them browned out..

And I don't do large water changes.. That is a no no with what i have in my system and achieve..

I don't have problems with nutrient.. And I don't dose iron to grow cheato.. I don't believe in that.. I am well past that basic stage.. I, and others use it for other things. And to do "both", you have to have a fundamental understanding of light, power and spectrum.. And just because it's high powered, doesn't make it able to grow effectively.. Try and throw a 175 watt higher kelvin halide on a fuge, side by side (like i did in the past as an experiment) and watch how it "doesn't" grow nearly as well.. A regular halide grow bulb(a regular halide, non aquarium Falls somewhere in that range). Off the shelf.. Or, even better a full spectrum fixture with blue channel all the way up and the white Channel on maybe 10 to 15 percent.. I say this, because i have done it and tried it.. Power is not nearly everything.. Spectrum, along with power in that spectrum is what really grows

And I hate to say it, but I looked at one of your pictures and yeah, you would be able to grow a bucket of cheato in a week. The tank you posted was full of hair algea in the display. Even in the sand.. I don't operate on that level and neither does my system.. And id love to see the cheato also.. The quality of it says a ton and you get different effects and looks depending on what your growing with.. And I can pretty much guarantee that your not growing a 5 gallon bucket in a week.. Not from a small little piece like I'm talking about.. Not with that light.. It's far too weak.. And that's even against mogul based cfl's at much higher wattage and different spectrums.. And not pure cheato.. And I'm talking about no hair, no slime, nothing else.. I'd love to see that.. Especially in a system with low light like "that".. And I'm sure, plenty of us that use higher light would challenge that claim also.. Along with, the impact that it truly made on your system..

I'd like actual proof.. Along with display tank shots of that wasn't your system..

And having a dedicated fixture for growing cheato in the right spectrum with plenty of power is not a waste.. That's a proactive, aggressive and figuratively inexpensive measure to maximize growth. You can't expect miracles on minimal.. And it has nothing to do with water changes and or feeding..

I am talking about actual and effective "pulling, scavenging, and converting"

[outy]

Originally Posted by DamonG

Power is not nearly everything

Sure it is, it factually is, that's why you throw so much power into it growing what amounts to a weed.

You cannot grow what you do with 10w or 30w bulb, it requires power.

NO Spectrum will change that growth to equal wattage.


No one is downplaying the importance of spectrum, but it can easily be replaced with wattage.


You went off on a rant brother, because I stated the fact power of wattage is the most important aspect here.

The tank you posted was full of hair algea in the display. Even in the sand

My coral is over 30 years old, much mine which I'm in 25 years now. This is a labor of love not some store bought wonder. This has almost no cash thrown at it.

I don't live for my tank. But thanks for taking pathetic pot shots at my tank everyone else loves, and keeps my local reef shop stocked full with branching hammer. My tank pays for itself.


At the time of the picture last month, DSB was 6 years old, MH bulbs were two years old, the VHO 454's were 6 years old. and water not changed in a year, no chaeto at all. Skimmer pump died a few months back, and the eheim circ pump on my calcium reactor had a broken impeller for at least 3 months.

So yes GHA showed its ugly head, and I'm proud of it.

My tank paid enough and fixed every aspect mentioned above, just from coral wholesale. Not enough to even change its appearance.

And having a dedicated fixture for growing cheato in the right spectrum with plenty of power is not a waste..

You may have a comprehensive issue here I never said that nor implied such.


My point was wattage is more important then spectrum, and you in no way have refuted anything towards this. You danced around everything but that, and obviously avoided it, less when you agreed "power" was important.

The quality of it says a ton

My tank looks natural in a real world setting.

In the last two years my tank has received $50 worth of maintenance, which was only salt for 2 100g water changes yearly in the summer.

You try growing a budget tank throwing no money at all at it. its an art form

Opps forgot the calcium reactor gas lets add $130 for that. Opps $50 in reactor media.


Sorry to busy living and doing other things. And you forgot the valonia, red bubble agea to


The DSB is also 6 years old so its getting to its saturation point, as much of it has turned to rock where I cannot get to it.

I'm proud of my tank.

For others that have not seen it.

Here is my ugly tank

Before 6 years ago



After as it started to slide.

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by RobTheReefer

Haha. It is ludicrous when you think of it. I can imagine what people are thinking as they read this thread...150w hps, kessils, bml, gyre...lol

It's so damn good at exporting nutrients that you can't help but try to maximize growth at any cost.

Maybe I should have a solar tube installed over my fuge? Florida sun should be great for Chaeto. hahaha

True, true...

[RobTheReefer]

Originally Posted by outy

After as it started to slide.

I see where you went wrong. There's no xenia.

Seriously though, old tanks are tough. The whole point of me growing Chaeto is to bring my 10 year old tank back after years and years of neglect. I also have "sandstone" under my rocks (both of which are probably loaded with phosphates).

It's getting there fast though. New r/o filters...found out my water has chloramines, and each water change was doing more harm than good. Lots of large sand vacuums. Removed the DSB in the fuge section of my sump. Bought a decent skimmer, newer dc pumps, new lights. Now growing Chaeto!

I now catch my teenage daughter and my girlfriend (of 18 years, lol) standing in front of it. The fish have names, and the tank is a member of the family again.

[outy]

Originally Posted by RobTheReefer

I see where you went wrong. There's no xenia.

Seriously though, old tanks are tough. The whole point of me growing Chaeto is to bring my 10 year old tank back after years and years of neglect. I also have "sandstone" under my rocks (both of which are probably loaded with phosphates).

It's getting there fast though. New r/o filters...found out my water has chloramines, and each water change was doing more harm than good. Lots of large sand vacuums. Removed the DSB in the fuge section of my sump. Bought a decent skimmer, newer dc pumps, new lights. Now growing Chaeto!

I now catch my teenage daughter and my girlfriend (of 18 years, lol) standing in front of it. The fish have names, and the tank is a member of the family again.

Your tank is like mine.

Every water change would give me GHA, I have rebuilt my RO station and went to dual membrane and all new filters hoping to stop this. Even added dual DI.

My DSB kept the tank clean and GHA free, but with age its stating to require more, so like you its chaeto time.


I really want to tear it down and flush the DSB and remove the sandstone.

[RobTheReefer]

Originally Posted by outy

Your tank is like mine.

Every water change would give me GHA, I have rebuilt my RO station and went to dual membrane and all new filters hoping to stop this. Even added dual DI.

My DSB kept the tank clean and GHA free, but with age its stating to require more, so like you its chaeto time.


I really want to tear it down and flush the DSB and remove the sandstone.

I came so close to doing just that, I was pricing rubbermaid stock tanks and thinking about acid washing my rocks.

"Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!"

My tank is improving by leaps and bounds. There's only so many nutrients in there, and I'm pulling out way more than I'm putting in. I think the thriving Chaeto is the missing piece that brings it back from the brink.

Speaking of Chaeto, the H150 Purple is a beast (over a 12" x 12" anyway). I can't wait to post a one week progress. It should be good.

[outy]

Originally Posted by RobTheReefer

was pricing rubbermaid stock tanks and thinking about acid washing my rocks.


.

A decade ago, I pulled and scrubbed all my rock, put it under the house for 8 weeks, changed water once.

Put in a new DSB. Lasted about 4 years before I bought the 215g

It was worth it, funny thing is, I cant tell you how much life survived the cold water in and on the rocks.


What I learned was most of the issue was not the rocks per say, but it did get rid of GHA. The issue was the DSB and not that they get loaded with crud. Its the sandstone that forms that stops it from processing the crud.


Well my guess anyway.

[outy]

Right before I took it down, about a decade ago, maybe a little less

[IMG][/IMG]

[Scorpius]

Those Heli's are worth as much as that tank. I fly an Align 450 occasionally.

[outy]

I have not flown those in 2 years, I need to get out there again.

LOl just noticed you can see the tang and the damsel in every picture.

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Those Heli's are worth as much as that tank. I fly an Align 450 occasionally.

I noticed them also.. Synergy flyer here when I'm not flying foamies in the off season.. I'm waiting on the 766 to come out..

[RobTheReefer]

Got a Hanna HI736 Phosphorus ULR Checker today. Testing 2ppb phosphorus (0.006ppm phosphate). There's no way that Cheato could have dropped my phosphates like that, is there?

My new skimmer has really hit its stride lately as well. I'm pulling out some really dark nastiness. I've never pulled skimmate this dark and nasty out of this tank since I set it up. I guess between the skimmer and the Chaeto, I'm on the road to a great looking tank.

What's funny is I was reading the lanthanum chloride thread, and I was going to start that up on Monday. But at 0.006ppm phosphate (0.022ppm would be the high end of the error range), I don't see the need.

[outy]

Originally Posted by RobTheReefer

Got a Hanna HI736 Phosphorus ULR Checker today. Testing 2ppb phosphorus (0.006ppm phosphate). There's no way that Cheato could have dropped my phosphates like that, is there?

My new skimmer has really hit its stride lately as well. I'm pulling out some really dark nastiness. I've never pulled skimmate this dark and nasty out of this tank since I set it up. I guess between the skimmer and the Chaeto, I'm on the road to a great looking tank.

What's funny is I was reading the lanthanum chloride thread, and I was going to start that up on Monday. But at 0.006ppm phosphate (0.022ppm would be the high end of the error range), I don't see the need.

Nice!


Everything helps.


Getting ready to do a 100g water change myself. Total sump volume only.

Just changing lights out and getting all the equipment running like your skimmer tuning, the GHA on the DSB is turning light green almost white

Hopefully I can get a few more years out of DSB, I may get bored and yank it all anyway

[cambo123]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Those Heli's are worth as much as that tank. I fly an Align 450 occasionally.

No doubt, TRex 600E and Protos500 are what I still fly occasionally! Really expensive hobby haha.

[DamonG]

Originally Posted by RobTheReefer

Got a Hanna HI736 Phosphorus ULR Checker today. Testing 2ppb phosphorus (0.006ppm phosphate). There's no way that Cheato could have dropped my phosphates like that, is there?

My new skimmer has really hit its stride lately as well. I'm pulling out some really dark nastiness. I've never pulled skimmate this dark and nasty out of this tank since I set it up. I guess between the skimmer and the Chaeto, I'm on the road to a great looking tank.

What's funny is I was reading the lanthanum chloride thread, and I was going to start that up on Monday. But at 0.006ppm phosphate (0.022ppm would be the high end of the error range), I don't see the need.

Yes, it can... Depending on lighting strength and the growth of the cheato(accelerated growth means accelerated nutrient uptake) .. It's really just like an algea scrubber with taking up nutrient.. Along with a good skimmer pulling like crazy..

[RobTheReefer]

Just ran another test. 0ppb phosphorous on a Hanna HI736. Bizarre.

Okay, I'm just going to go with it. The algae from the last tank feeding is mostly transparent. The tangs, scarlet reef hermits and trochus are mowing what's left of it down.

It's a bit late to start a journal on a 10 year old tank, but I may swallow my pride and expose my shame to the world.

[RobTheReefer]

Got a Red Sea Nitrate Pro test kit today. 0.0 ppm Nitrates. I did start carbon dosing on Dec. 15th, so I don't know if it was the carbon or the Chaeto or both that dropped my Nitrates to 0. I'll be cutting the carbon dose back to 25% of what it was. The Chaeto about doubled in size, but seems to have slowed since starting the carbon dosing.

What's left of the algae in the DT is transparent. Crabs and snails are slowly finishing it off (tangs won't touch it). I am a bit worried about my corals and clam.

[slief]

Originally Posted by outy

Right before I took it down, about a decade ago, maybe a little less

[IMG][/IMG]

Nice assortment of Heli's! I use to fly quite a bit and owned an online and walk in RC shop called Zoom's Heli also known as Zoom's Hobbies. In addition to selling the full line of Heli's (Min Air, JR, Align, Synergy, Hirobo etc) and parts, we molded our own fiber glass canopies and had a full paint booth in house. I ended up selling the business to Nadir from MTA Hobbies. He ended up shutting down MTA a few years later which was really pretty sad. I adored him and his wife Rosie.

I'm friends with most of the well knowns in the industry like Alan Szabo, Todd Bennet, Jason Kraus and Curtis Youngblood. This a an old picture from a number of years back with Me, Curtis, Todd and Jason Kraus. Alan Szabo was a young up and comer at the time. He wanted to fly in with us but we didn't have enough room for him in the helicopter. I hired te Jet Ranger to fly us in to the event with 40+ pizzas to feed the crowd for free as a publicity stunt. Before we landed at the RC field, the pilot took us out over a local reservoir and did a stall turn in the air not to far off the water. You should have seen the guys flipping out when he pulled that stunt! It was pretty classic.


I used to take the shop of the road packed into a trailer for some of the larger fun flys.

[RobTheReefer]

Originally Posted by slief

Nice assortment of Heli's! I use to fly quite a bit and owned an online and walk in RC shop called Zoom's Heli also known as Zoom's Hobbies. In addition to selling the full line of Heli's (Min Air, JR, Align, Synergy, Hirobo etc) and parts, we molded our own fiber glass canopies and had a full paint booth in house. I ended up selling the business to Nadir from MTA Hobbies. He ended up shutting down MTA a few years later which was really pretty sad. I adored him and his wife Rosie.

I'm friends with most of the well knowns in the industry like Alan Szabo, Todd Bennet, Jason Kraus and Curtis Youngblood. This a an old picture from a number of years back with Me, Curtis, Todd and Jason Kraus. Alan Szabo was a young up and comer at the time. He wanted to fly in with us but we didn't have enough room for him in the helicopter. I hired te Jet Ranger to fly us in to the event with 40+ pizzas to feed the crowd for free as a publicity stunt. Before we landed at the RC field, the pilot took us out over a local reservoir and did a stall turn in the air not to far off the water. You should have seen the guys flipping out when he pulled that stunt! It was pretty classic.

I used to take the shop of the road packed into a trailer for some of the larger fun flys.

Oh yeah? Well, my dad can beat up your dad.

[slief]

Originally Posted by RobTheReefer

Oh yeah? Well, my dad can beat up your dad.

I'm sure he can too!

I have a feeling Outy and I may have crossed paths before or have some mutual friends..

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by cvhji

I bought a 100 watt equivalent led bulb from home depot and a cheap reflector. Grows my Cheato just fine.

No, you need a street light.

[outy]

Originally Posted by slief

I'm friends with most of the well knowns in the industry like Alan Szabo, Todd Bennet, Jason Kraus and Curtis Youngblood.

Nice!!

I'm still at runryder and have been for 8 years [outhouse]

Know of all of those guys but never met them.


Once I started with my Ducatis 4 years ago, my poor helis have been neglected. But I still go to RR daily

I have a feeling Outy and I may have crossed paths before or have some mutual friends..

I'm sure


You probably know Tall Mike who fly's a mean heli out o Sacramento, great guy with talent.