Where do bacteria come from?

Psychomantix · 12/10/2015, 03:52 PM

I've read that to cycle a new tank, you just ghost feed or throw in a raw shrimp or pure ammonia and wait for bacteria to grow. My question is: where do these bacteria come from, especially if I'm using dry rock/sand that has been sterilized. My tap water source comes from a river, which I'm sure has tons of nitrifying bacteria. But I also read that fresh- and saltwater are different and FW bacteria will all die off in SW.
So, without seeding bacteria either with live rock or from a bottle, can these bacteria magically appear out of nowhere if there is ammonia in the water?

CStrickland · 12/10/2015, 04:09 PM

These bacteria are everywhere. Some of them are the reason why a tuna sandwich that you leave on the counter for a few days will rot, some pull nitrogen from the air so corn can grow, some people even say that changes in atmospheric oxygen levels triggered by cyanobacteria allowed life as we know it to begin its evolution, like way before the dinosaurs.
It would be impossible to keep them out. Also, even if they weren't all over the place, and all over you, and in the air, there's nothing sterile about dry sand and rock.

Are you sure you wanna use tap water?

gone fishin · 12/10/2015, 04:14 PM

Thanks I'm climbing into my bubble now.

CStrickland · 12/10/2015, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gone fishin

Thanks I'm climbing into my bubble now.

I dare you to google eyelash mites
they live on just about everybody's face
I double dare you
theyre on your face right now prolly

gone fishin · 12/10/2015, 06:11 PM

I'll take your word for it. I would end up pulling out my eye lashes.

e048 · 12/10/2015, 08:39 PM

They're in the air, on your skin, they can live as dormant cysts for years until the environment is right for them to grow

Ron Reefman · 12/11/2015, 06:13 AM

Even you have bacteria, and lots of them. Every human being on Earth has more individual bacteria living inside them then they do human cells in their body! Hows that for a scary fact!

toothybugs · 12/11/2015, 06:25 AM

Technically speaking, the concept of spontaneous generation is bunk, bacteria have to come from somewhere. That said, I think you will have an extremely difficult time cultivating a thriving tank if you assume you will get oceanic bacteria from the air without seeding your system. Well, Ron might

, but I wouldn't hedge your tank on it. A few pounds of legit live rock is all you need to get going. It takes more time, but it will get going.

ScienceRulez · 12/11/2015, 06:35 AM

While you don't have to seed a new tank, it makes things go much much faster if you do. Either by live rock or a bottle.

Ron Reefman · 12/11/2015, 08:06 AM

You don't have to 'seed' a tank with any bacteria at all and it will work, it just takes longer. Some LR will make it happen considerably faster. Bacteria in a bottle may even be way faster. It's a matter of how you want to do it. I used some LR, it doesn't take much at all.

BTW, Nate, I'm happy with most of my bacteria!

rsain · 12/11/2015, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toothybugs

Technically speaking, the concept of spontaneous generation is bunk, bacteria have to come from somewhere.

I dont disagree about getting live rock. I highly suggest it. However, this statement misses the mark.

No one is talking about spontaneous generation. The bacteria needed to cycle the tank exist pretty much all over (see earlier posts). Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there. It's only "magical" if one doesn't understand the process.

And to make matters even more cool - ever wonder why coralline algae will develop in a bare tank running decent calcium and lighting with artificial salt water in the middle of Kansas? The answer will either make you cringe or be amazed. And bacteria are smaller. :-)

- ryan

ScienceRulez · 12/11/2015, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsain

...

...And to make matters even more cool - ever wonder why coralline algae will develop in a bare tank running decent calcium and lighting with artificial salt water in the middle of Kansas? The answer will either make you cringe or be amazed. And bacteria are smaller. :-)

- ryan

So what is the process? Not just Kansas mind you, but say Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, etc? That far inland I would be surprised if coraline algae existed especially considering the Rockys, BigHorns, Grand Tetons, etc...

rsain · 12/11/2015, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScienceRulez

So what is the process? Not just Kansas mind you, but say Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, etc? That far inland I would be surprised if coraline algae existed especially considering the Rockys, BigHorns, Grand Tetons, etc...

I was on an airplane with a good friend of mine. PhD biologist guy (Dr. Keats) - had some coralline algae named after him that grows on kelp stalks in one small by in South Africa only to be eaten by other algae. The flight was about 12hrs long so we had time to chat. Rather, I had time to ask a single question, and listen to his dissertation level response. The question I asked?

"How does coralline algae get into my tank even though I have nothing from the ocean in there and do not live anywhere near one?" He laughed. Then spoke for hours.

His initial response was "it's everywhere". Fast forward to a break in Senegal and getting sprayed with some sort of anti bug chemical. "Like that" he said.

Basically his argument is that it's in the atmospheric column. Something about cysts or spores, I don't recall. But I was and am amazed. Much like I am about how much feces you (we/us) breathe on a given day. :-) Y'all can look that up on your own.

Back to the original point. If algae can get everywhere - imagine where bacteria can get. Spontaneous generation is not the process, rather, a pseudo explanation of the process. Or as toothybugs put it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by toothybugs

the concept of spontaneous generation is bunk

exactly.

- ryan

CStrickland · 12/11/2015, 05:34 PM

I dare you to google breathing feces
we breathe it just about all the time
I double dare you
youre breathing it right now prolly

rsain · 12/11/2015, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CStrickland

I dare you to google breathing feces
we breathe it just about all the time
I double dare you
youre breathing it right now prolly

While I was living in Kabul a team of rather funny, possibly inebriated, science types took air samples, in August (from random locations across the city, spread out throughout the day). They quantified the result of feces breathed per day in teaspoons.

TEASPOONS.

- ryan

CStrickland · 12/11/2015, 06:01 PM

Tony can I borrow your bubble?

gone fishin · 12/11/2015, 06:16 PM

no problem. Living next to a dairy farm I don't even want to know.

reefbroao · 12/12/2015, 08:34 AM

maybe us humans need that daily teaspoon of feces to grow big and strong. c'mon, kids big breaths.

JMorris271 · 12/12/2015, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CStrickland

Tony can I borrow your bubble?

ROTFLMAO

12/10/2015, 03:52 PM	#1
Psychomantix Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Canada Posts: 120	Where do bacteria come from? I've read that to cycle a new tank, you just ghost feed or throw in a raw shrimp or pure ammonia and wait for bacteria to grow. My question is: where do these bacteria come from, especially if I'm using dry rock/sand that has been sterilized. My tap water source comes from a river, which I'm sure has tons of nitrifying bacteria. But I also read that fresh- and saltwater are different and FW bacteria will all die off in SW. So, without seeding bacteria either with live rock or from a bottle, can these bacteria magically appear out of nowhere if there is ammonia in the water?

12/10/2015, 04:09 PM	#2
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	These bacteria are everywhere. Some of them are the reason why a tuna sandwich that you leave on the counter for a few days will rot, some pull nitrogen from the air so corn can grow, some people even say that changes in atmospheric oxygen levels triggered by cyanobacteria allowed life as we know it to begin its evolution, like way before the dinosaurs. It would be impossible to keep them out. Also, even if they weren't all over the place, and all over you, and in the air, there's nothing sterile about dry sand and rock. Are you sure you wanna use tap water? __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

12/10/2015, 04:14 PM	#3
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	Thanks I'm climbing into my bubble now. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

12/10/2015, 06:11 PM	#5
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	I'll take your word for it. I would end up pulling out my eye lashes. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

12/11/2015, 06:13 AM	#7
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	Even you have bacteria, and lots of them. Every human being on Earth has more individual bacteria living inside them then they do human cells in their body! Hows that for a scary fact! __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017

12/10/2015, 08:39 PM	#6
e048 Registered Member. Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 598	They're in the air, on your skin, they can live as dormant cysts for years until the environment is right for them to grow

12/11/2015, 06:25 AM	#8
toothybugs In Memoriam Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: The smallest county in Illinois Posts: 1,986	Technically speaking, the concept of spontaneous generation is bunk, bacteria have to come from somewhere. That said, I think you will have an extremely difficult time cultivating a thriving tank if you assume you will get oceanic bacteria from the air without seeding your system. Well, Ron might , but I wouldn't hedge your tank on it. A few pounds of legit live rock is all you need to get going. It takes more time, but it will get going.

12/11/2015, 06:35 AM	#9
ScienceRulez Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Allentown PA Posts: 286	While you don't have to seed a new tank, it makes things go much much faster if you do. Either by live rock or a bottle.

12/11/2015, 08:06 AM	#10
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	You don't have to 'seed' a tank with any bacteria at all and it will work, it just takes longer. Some LR will make it happen considerably faster. Bacteria in a bottle may even be way faster. It's a matter of how you want to do it. I used some LR, it doesn't take much at all. BTW, Nate, I'm happy with most of my bacteria! __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017

12/11/2015, 05:34 PM	#14
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	I dare you to google breathing feces we breathe it just about all the time I double dare you youre breathing it right now prolly __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

12/11/2015, 06:01 PM	#16
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	Tony can I borrow your bubble? __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

12/11/2015, 06:16 PM	#17
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	no problem. Living next to a dairy farm I don't even want to know. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

12/12/2015, 08:34 AM	#18
reefbroao Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Seattle Posts: 747	maybe us humans need that daily teaspoon of feces to grow big and strong. c'mon, kids big breaths. __________________ Reefer 170 E series.