Worm ID

[ChiReefGuy]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

If it's a Euphylia eating flatworm, which I suspect, it came in on a frag of Euphylia. The op has not stated he used live rock.

Crabs and mantis are easily remedied and are pretty much harmless when small. Macro algae usually won't survive in a low nutrient tank or one that has herbivores.

There's no right or wrong way. Live or dead can support a tank. My point is simply pests that are of major concern are often introduced from other hobbyists and the LFS, not live rock.

There seems to be a growing myth that live rock equals horrible pests and it's just not true. There is however a reality that hobbyists and LFS tanks are breeding grounds for pests. We don't want to blame each other for our carelessness so we blame a freaking rock.

I did use LR when setting it up about a year and a half ago, little longer than that.
The corals get dipped in CoralRX before I introduce them to the tank, so I doubt he came in on a frag.
I think it likely came in with the LR at a very small/very young age, and has just gotten big enough to be an issue.
It may be a euphylia eating flatworm, but the frogspawn doesn't seem to be seeing any ill effects from it. It's still coming out, at least for the most part. I gotta adjust his position some more, likely, due to the flow adjustments I've made, but otherwise he looks happy, and has absolutely no damage on him.
He was flushed yesterday, though, and I checked my tank with lights off last night twice, and once this morning, and didn't see anything else. Will continue to keep an eye out, though.

[SoloGarth]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

If it's a Euphylia eating flatworm, which I suspect, it came in on a frag of Euphylia. The op has not stated he used live rock.

Crabs and mantis are easily remedied and are pretty much harmless when small. Macro algae usually won't survive in a low nutrient tank or one that has herbivores.

There's no right or wrong way. Live or dead can support a tank. My point is simply pests that are of major concern are often introduced from other hobbyists and the LFS, not live rock.

There seems to be a growing myth that live rock equals horrible pests and it's just not true. There is however a reality that hobbyists and LFS tanks are breeding grounds for pests. We don't want to blame each other for our carelessness so we blame a freaking rock.

Actually yes he did state he used LR. See post 9. Also since people often buy LR from LFS I do not understand where you get this idea that it should be pest free?

This is no myth. LR from any source often introduces pests into the system. It contains organisms from whatever system it came from. Whether that is the ocean or a LFS system any organisms that inhabit the LR are introduced into the tank.

This is not an argument against QT. I am a huge proponent of QT and proactive treatment of anything added to the tank. This includes the rock. Dry rock is simply a known factor while LR is not.

[karimwassef]

I think the point is that parasites usually attach to their food sources (coral heads, frags, etc...). They can come in on LR too, but they're more commonly inside the rock base of a coral.

[SoloGarth]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

I think the point is that parasites usually attach to their food sources (coral heads, frags, etc...). They can come in on LR too, but they're more commonly inside the rock base of a coral.

Parasites yes. General pests no. Also frags are able to be dipped and QT. While you can QT a piece of live rock I doubt anyone does. If you have generalized predators or other pest species in your tank they more than likely came in on the LR and not on dipped and QT coral frags.

Also this was his statement:

"There seems to be a growing myth that live rock equals horrible pests and it's just not true."

Not coral parasites just horrible pests. I don't think people benefit from being told that they should not worry about introducing predatory animals and pests because "they are easily remedied" afterwards. That is not good advice IMO.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by SoloGarth

Parasites yes. General pests no. Also frags are able to be dipped and QT. While you can QT a piece of live rock I doubt anyone does. If you have generalized predators or other pest species in your tank they more than likely came in on the LR and not on dipped and QT coral frags.

Also this was his statement:

"There seems to be a growing myth that live rock equals horrible pests and it's just not true."

Not coral parasites just horrible pests. I don't think people benefit from being told that they should not worry about introducing predatory animals and pests because "they are easily remedied" afterwards. That is not good advice IMO.

I do agree with that statement, but telling people that dry rock = no pests isn't a really accurate either.

[SoloGarth]

Originally Posted by Bent

I do agree with that statement, but telling people that dry rock = no pests isn't a really accurate either.

I never said dry rock = no pests (has anyone?) Just that using dry rock results in no pests introduced via the dry rock. Other introductions via frags or fish are another matter.

Obviously there are other necessary precautions needed to ensure pests don't get into the tank. Such as dipping and QT as I have mentioned.

[CuzzA]

Dipping doesn't kill eggs. Perhaps the source of this flatworm.

I should also clarify my definition of live rock. To me live rock from the ocean is true live rock. Live rock from a LFS vat is typically cured rock that likely has more pests and negatives than positives. Many LFS just dump dry rock in their vats and sell it as live rock a few months later. Also, I'll point out the geographical source of the ocean rock is important. For example, if it's from an area where there's no Euphylia corals, guess what pest won't be coming in on the rock?

My 90 is a sterile tank. Dry rock. It's pretty boring. I know exactly what's in there. Nothing changes except the growth of my fish and corals. For some this may be all they want. I enjoy the development and interesting critters of a natural biodiverse tank. But to each his own.

This subject has been beat to death. There's no way anyone can say that flatworm came from live rock. There's simply too many possible ways it entered the system.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by SoloGarth

I never said dry rock = no pests (has anyone?) Just that using dry rock results in no pests introduced via the dry rock. Other introductions via frags or fish are another matter.

Obviously there are other necessary precautions needed to ensure pests don't get into the tank. Such as dipping and QT as I have mentioned.

Yes, I've heard that statement multiple times from people who argue against live rock. Not from you specifically, just in general.

[SoloGarth]

Originally Posted by Bent

Yes, I've heard that statement multiple times from people who argue against live rock. Not from you specifically, just in general.

That is a very foolish argument that can't stand up to even very light scrutiny. There is really no difference between adding live rock and adding an un-dipped and non QT'd frag into the tank particularly if the frag is mounted on . . . a piece of live rock.

This sort of thing symbolizes my frustration with the advice given on these forums. Too often it is things like "don't QT your fish because they can live with Ich and it's always in your system anyway".

If we want the hobby to continue and to grow we need to promote correct practices that help ensure that new hobbyists are successful and enjoy the hobby. Also we need to promote sustainable and environmentally sound practices. For example using dry rock over LR taken from the ocean. If for no other reason than to work against the constant shift toward an outright ban on SW aquarium imports.

Ok I'm stepping off my soap box now.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by SoloGarth

That is a very foolish argument that can't stand up to even very light scrutiny. There is really no difference between adding live rock and adding an un-dipped and non QT'd frag into the tank particularly if the frag is mounted on . . . a piece of live rock.

This sort of thing symbolizes my frustration with the advice given on these forums. Too often it is things like "don't QT your fish because they can live with Ich and it's always in your system anyway".

If we want the hobby to continue and to grow we need to promote correct practices that help ensure that new hobbyists are successful and enjoy the hobby. Also we need to promote sustainable and environmentally sound practices. For example using dry rock over LR taken from the ocean. If for no other reason than to work against the constant shift toward an outright ban on SW aquarium imports.

Ok I'm stepping off my soap box now.

Truly can't disagree with any of that.

[CuzzA]

I'm don't disagree with much of your previous post, except your insinuating ocean rock is full of pests, is not a good way to start a reef tank and it's devastating to the environment. Which is half truth.

There are very few locations in the world where coral reef is harvested from the ocean for purposes of providing a rock structure in an aquarium. Most of your harvested ocean dead rock is coming from Fiji. The typical ocean live rock available to hobbyists in the states are from aquaculture sites. If you do some research on it you'll find in order to even establish a lease site the area must be absolutely barren of life. Then you get to build your artificial reef with quarried or man made rock which is completely sustainable and actually has a positive impact on the environment as it creates a reef which wasn't there before.

Trust me, there's a long thread on here somewhere in which I argued against live rock because of pests. I've since changed my mind and argue both work, but live rock is much more fun and provides a biodiverse environment that mimics a real reef more than a test tube tank.

[jimmyj7090]

Back to the original topic, CuzzA, have you dealt with this particular type of FW before?

I ask because a lot of what you have said about FW's sounds like you are referring to the many more common little varities.

These guys the OP is dealing with grow larger than a lot of good sized frags. Like up to 6" end to end. They blend in well for sure, but they are very large to be sneaking in on your average frag. They also tend to eat mostly or exclusively snails and clams. Also, I'm pretty sure that they are VERY resistant to most things that will kill other, smaller FWs. For example I once caught one of these guys and kept it in about 8-10oz of water, and then added something like 30-50 drops of FW exit, and the little monster didn't even appear to be irritated (and I left it in that water for days hoping it would die, it didn't and now it's probably still living in my septic system )

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by ChiReefGuy

Anyone have any idea what this guy is? I adjusted flow in my tank a bit, and moved my Frogspawn because he seemed unhappy in the spot he was in afterwards. When he went back into his skeleton, I found this guy slithering around on the end of the one head. Only one I've ever seen in my tank. Thanks!!!

Note that that FW is probably not that much smaller than the size of the pinky finger on the person's hand

[CuzzA]

Here is a recent invasion that came in on a fellow Tampa Bay Reef Club members euphylia frags. Despite dips, the eggs survived. I only suggest they are Euphylia eating flatworms because it was found on the OP's frogspawn and it looks like one. Apparently they get quite large, but that doesn't surprise me as euphylia corals are big corals. They mimic the flesh of the coral to avoid detection from predators.

Notice the story is almost identical to the thread I linked. Moved powerhead/changed flow, coral showed stress so upon further inspection flatworms were discovered. Another member ID'ed them as Euphylia eating flatworms.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...php?p=23704921

[karimwassef]

So.. predators?

Would coral banded kill them?

[CuzzA]

I'm going to assume once they get large enough and have a good population they would devour our relatively small corals compared to the big colonies found in the ocean. Not to mention there's likely some predator out there that eats them. I have a coral banded shrimp and he's pretty reclusive so I'm not sure if that would be a good fast solution. A wrasse may help if it could identify them, but honestly I thinking dipping and qt for eggs would be the only sure fire way.

I wonder if this is going to become a more common problem for our tanks. It goes back to my point about hobbyists and LFS spreading pests to plaque proportions. Non qted corals and constant trading has lead to AEFW and Red Bugs to become extremely common while I doubt they're very common in the wild.

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Here is a recent invasion that came in on a fellow Tampa Bay Reef Club members euphylia frags. Despite dips, the eggs survived. I only suggest they are Euphylia eating flatworms because it was found on the OP's frogspawn and it looks like one. Apparently they get quite large, but that doesn't surprise me as euphylia corals are big corals. They mimic the flesh of the coral to avoid detection from predators.

Notice the story is almost identical to the thread I linked. Moved powerhead/changed flow, coral showed stress so upon further inspection flatworms were discovered. Another member ID'ed them as Euphylia eating flatworms.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...php?p=23704921

Ahh, OK, those do look like little versions of the same thing, and clearly it is logical to assume a connection to the coral they are swarming.

I didn't mean to question you outright, we just never know who has what experience and who doesn't.

Seems like this isn't the first thread to pop up recently with polycads. I wonder if one or more importer is unknowingly bringing them by the boatload?

[jimmyj7090]

Originally Posted by karimwassef

So.. predators?

Would coral banded kill them?

At least the ones I encountered, well, I bet the polycads wold eat the CBS before the opposite would happen.

[CuzzA]

No problem. I know a thing or two, but there's always lots to learn, especially when we're talking about the ocean. We haven't even scratched the surface.

[karimwassef]

Originally Posted by jimmyj7090

At least the ones I encountered, well, I bet the polycads wold eat the CBS before the opposite would happen.

YIKES! I keep 11 coral banded in my reef... they hunt every night

[ChiReefGuy]

Thanks for all the info, guys. I dipped my torch, and my frogspawn, and they seem to be fine, no more worms, and never had another sign of another one of these guys. I've checked just about every night for em, and nothing. Glad I got him out. Seems to be he was the only one.
I wonder if a neon dottyback would eat the small ones if there were eggs and they hatch? Just put him in the tank a week or so ago, not for that purpose, but because I got a good deal on him at my LFS.