Regulating flow in sump

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 03:46 PM

Hi,

I am having some issues regulating the flow in my sump since turning on my mechanical filtration and skimmer. I have a ball valve between:

1. My display tank and my sump
2. My return pump (Eheim 1262) and my display tank (the outlet)

The issue is, I am having issues fine tuning the flow of these two valves. If I leave both on full blast, the baffles overflow. If I regulate the ball valve from the display tank to the sump, it will be fine for a while but it'll eventually flood over the baffles, or the sump will run dry. Any suggestions?

Note: its 1 inch (ID) INTO the sump and 3/4 (ID) OUT from the sump.

Pilotman520 · 04/13/2016, 03:52 PM

If you have any restrictions on the way to the sump get rid of them. Regulate only the return and the drain will fix itself. The only reason to regulate the drain is if you are doing a herbie or beananimal with a full siphon.

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilotman520

If you have any restrictions on the way to the sump get rid of them. Regulate only the return and the drain will fix itself. The only reason to regulate the drain is if you are doing a herbie or beananimal with a full siphon.

So you mean I should open the ball valve between the display tank and the sump completely and let it flood the sump?

Pilotman520 · 04/13/2016, 05:08 PM

If you have any restrictions on the way to the sump get rid of them. Regulate only the return and the drain will fix itself. The only reason to regulate the drain is if you are doing a herbie or beananimal with a full siphon.

Pilotman520 · 04/13/2016, 05:15 PM

It will not flood your sump. First off there should be no way to flood the sump even with the power off. Your collection box and siphon break on the return should prevent this. If they do not you absolutely must fix this first.

You will control the flow by throttling the return pump. You will also find that this sets the water level in your display tank. I have to throttle mine back a bit so that my WaveMaker doesn't push water over the side.

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilotman520

It will not flood your sump. First off there should be no way to flood the sump even with the power off. Your collection box and siphon break on the return should prevent this. If they do not you absolutely must fix this first.

You will control the flow by throttling the return pump. You will also find that this sets the water level in your display tank. I have to throttle mine back a bit so that my WaveMaker doesn't push water over the side.

Here is a picture of what I mean and what I am facing. To the left is a ball valve that comes from the tan to the sump. This ball valve is slightly closed.

To the right (coming from the return pump) is another ball valve returning to the display tank which is 100% open. The reason the baffles aren't being overflowed right now is because the left valve is slightly restricted. Otherwise, the return pump would not be able to keep up resulting in the baffles overflowing.

The sump itself WILL NOT overflow if there is ever a power outage.

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 05:39 PM

Here is a picture of what the drain/return look like in the display tank.

JohnnyHildo · 04/13/2016, 06:07 PM

i would definitely consider using a larger drain and return line to help pass more water and allow more control. my pump is similar to the 1262 in terms of flow and i'm using a 1.5" drain and a 1" return. as mentioned earlier, the ball needs only to be on the return side.
on another note... i'm baffled by your baffles :S
they are very short which takes away from total water volume especially when you consider how much is also being displaced inside your sump via media and rock.

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilotman520

It will not flood your sump. First off there should be no way to flood the sump even with the power off. Your collection box and siphon break on the return should prevent this. If they do not you absolutely must fix this first.

You will control the flow by throttling the return pump. You will also find that this sets the water level in your display tank. I have to throttle mine back a bit so that my WaveMaker doesn't push water over the side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyHildo

i would definitely consider using a larger drain and return line to help pass more water and allow more control. my pump is similar to the 1262 in terms of flow and i'm using a 1.5" drain and a 1" return. as mentioned earlier, the ball needs only to be on the return side.
on another note... i'm baffled by your baffles :S
they are very short which takes away from total water volume especially when you consider how much is also being displaced inside your sump via media and rock.

The baffles are at 8.5 inches, which is what the recommended height was for the skimmer. I also allowed enough room so if there was a power outage, the sump would not overflow. I designed it this way based on feedback from people here. I have tested it, and it worked. I could remove the live rock, I suspect that might help.

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 07:00 PM

What if I attach an overflow box?

Pilotman520 · 04/13/2016, 07:57 PM

The problem with a hob overflow is it needs enough flow thru the u tube to prevent bubbles from forming. I would advise against it.

Pilotman520 · 04/13/2016, 08:38 PM

I would remove some of the water and put it in clean bucket. Run the system with both the drain and the return full open. If that drains the sump to fast start throttling the pump back some. At some point it will be in equilibrium and your return will be matched to your drain capacity. That will give you an idea of what your file will be worth the current at up. Then just add or subtract water so the level you want in your return section.

morpheas · 04/13/2016, 09:19 PM

Here's what i would do. Remove/leave open both valves (return and overflow) and make a spill-back on the pump and control how much of the water goes to the dt and the rest dump it back to the sump. Kill both birds with one stone...

CStrickland · 04/13/2016, 10:22 PM

Do you just have the one outlet from the DT, no emergency drain or stand pipe etc?
If so, you need to rethink the design. Your issue isn't the sump water level, it's the DT. There's no way to tune your drain to keep the DT water level a few inches above the outlet that allows for variations in drain capacity and pump output. That's a big flood risk.

Google some pics of "durso" "herbie" and "bean animal" drains and note how they maintain DT level. Once you get that sorted, you'll be able to run the drain wide open, and throttle the pump to achieve the right flow, and then adjust the total system amount of water to set the level in your sump. Trying to work backward is a non-starter

ReefMagician · 04/13/2016, 10:38 PM

My tank was designed using a "reef ready" sort of overflow. 1 drain, and 1 return on each side. I really think the issue I am having problems regulating the flow is because I do not have an overflow box. If I setup a system with the same setup as the attached picture, I should be all set. Correct?

Using an overflow box, I will put an elbow pointing downward, with the return going over the overflow box into the tank. From the elbow, I can attach the T I have now, allowing for redundant drains from the overflow. While its not a separate line as with the herbie overflow, I think it will fit my needs.

CStrickland · 04/13/2016, 11:28 PM

Usually when people talk about an overflow box they mean a siphon kit for non drilled tanks, but there are some newer designs like the "ghost overflow" that might suit you; they would require at least two holes right next to each other tho. The pic you attached is more like a "weir" that you see in tanks that are drilled on the bottom, they have a wall to separate a little part from the rest of the tank so the level can be different behind the wall. That pic is not a thing external to the tank, it is a division inside it. IDK if there's a way to attach a whole box on the outside like that, I don't think so. It would be impractical to instal a weir on a filled tank at this point.

The T is not a redundancy, that would be a separate line. The "elbow pointing downward" is a durso drain, they are reliable but can be quite noisy.

Have you considered running both drains to the sump, and using a pump into the canister filter that loops back to the sump? That might solve a lot of your issues, you could have a standard 2 drain 1 return, and a normal sump. Then just run your canister like another contraption. Idk much about canisters, but people run all sorts of gizmos like reactors and fuges and frag tanks using water they pump out of the sump and loop back into it for the return pump to send to the tank. That's easy and standard, and it doesn't implicate your sump/drain circle so it minimizes the worst case scenarios - if all fails you aren't putting as much water on the floor.

04/13/2016, 03:46 PM	#1
ReefMagician Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 117	Regulating flow in sump Hi, I am having some issues regulating the flow in my sump since turning on my mechanical filtration and skimmer. I have a ball valve between: 1. My display tank and my sump 2. My return pump (Eheim 1262) and my display tank (the outlet) The issue is, I am having issues fine tuning the flow of these two valves. If I leave both on full blast, the baffles overflow. If I regulate the ball valve from the display tank to the sump, it will be fine for a while but it'll eventually flood over the baffles, or the sump will run dry. Any suggestions? Note: its 1 inch (ID) INTO the sump and 3/4 (ID) OUT from the sump.

04/13/2016, 06:07 PM	#8
JohnnyHildo Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 669	i would definitely consider using a larger drain and return line to help pass more water and allow more control. my pump is similar to the 1262 in terms of flow and i'm using a 1.5" drain and a 1" return. as mentioned earlier, the ball needs only to be on the return side. on another note... i'm baffled by your baffles :S they are very short which takes away from total water volume especially when you consider how much is also being displaced inside your sump via media and rock. __________________ 120G Standard - 40G Sump. Apex - DOS - ATI Current Tank Info: Acros - Zoas - Palys

04/13/2016, 10:22 PM	#14
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	Do you just have the one outlet from the DT, no emergency drain or stand pipe etc? If so, you need to rethink the design. Your issue isn't the sump water level, it's the DT. There's no way to tune your drain to keep the DT water level a few inches above the outlet that allows for variations in drain capacity and pump output. That's a big flood risk. Google some pics of "durso" "herbie" and "bean animal" drains and note how they maintain DT level. Once you get that sorted, you'll be able to run the drain wide open, and throttle the pump to achieve the right flow, and then adjust the total system amount of water to set the level in your sump. Trying to work backward is a non-starter __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

04/13/2016, 11:28 PM	#16
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	Usually when people talk about an overflow box they mean a siphon kit for non drilled tanks, but there are some newer designs like the "ghost overflow" that might suit you; they would require at least two holes right next to each other tho. The pic you attached is more like a "weir" that you see in tanks that are drilled on the bottom, they have a wall to separate a little part from the rest of the tank so the level can be different behind the wall. That pic is not a thing external to the tank, it is a division inside it. IDK if there's a way to attach a whole box on the outside like that, I don't think so. It would be impractical to instal a weir on a filled tank at this point. The T is not a redundancy, that would be a separate line. The "elbow pointing downward" is a durso drain, they are reliable but can be quite noisy. Have you considered running both drains to the sump, and using a pump into the canister filter that loops back to the sump? That might solve a lot of your issues, you could have a standard 2 drain 1 return, and a normal sump. Then just run your canister like another contraption. Idk much about canisters, but people run all sorts of gizmos like reactors and fuges and frag tanks using water they pump out of the sump and loop back into it for the return pump to send to the tank. That's easy and standard, and it doesn't implicate your sump/drain circle so it minimizes the worst case scenarios - if all fails you aren't putting as much water on the floor. __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

04/13/2016, 03:52 PM	#2
Pilotman520 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 74	If you have any restrictions on the way to the sump get rid of them. Regulate only the return and the drain will fix itself. The only reason to regulate the drain is if you are doing a herbie or beananimal with a full siphon.

04/13/2016, 05:08 PM	#4
Pilotman520 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 74	If you have any restrictions on the way to the sump get rid of them. Regulate only the return and the drain will fix itself. The only reason to regulate the drain is if you are doing a herbie or beananimal with a full siphon.

04/13/2016, 05:15 PM	#5
Pilotman520 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 74	It will not flood your sump. First off there should be no way to flood the sump even with the power off. Your collection box and siphon break on the return should prevent this. If they do not you absolutely must fix this first. You will control the flow by throttling the return pump. You will also find that this sets the water level in your display tank. I have to throttle mine back a bit so that my WaveMaker doesn't push water over the side.

04/13/2016, 07:00 PM	#10
ReefMagician Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 117	What if I attach an overflow box?

04/13/2016, 07:57 PM	#11
Pilotman520 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 74	The problem with a hob overflow is it needs enough flow thru the u tube to prevent bubbles from forming. I would advise against it.

04/13/2016, 08:38 PM	#12
Pilotman520 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 74	I would remove some of the water and put it in clean bucket. Run the system with both the drain and the return full open. If that drains the sump to fast start throttling the pump back some. At some point it will be in equilibrium and your return will be matched to your drain capacity. That will give you an idea of what your file will be worth the current at up. Then just add or subtract water so the level you want in your return section.

04/13/2016, 09:19 PM	#13
morpheas Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 108	Here's what i would do. Remove/leave open both valves (return and overflow) and make a spill-back on the pump and control how much of the water goes to the dt and the rest dump it back to the sump. Kill both birds with one stone...