Help properly set my expectations

[re76]

Hi,

I am very new to the forums. I have wanted to build a reef tank since I was in high school. I am now a real human with a job, money, and a steady housing situation and I am ready to pull the trigger.

My girlfriend and I just bought our first home and I am so excited to finally be able to get started in this hobby.

I have set for myself a semi-strict initial budget of $4000 and I want to stay as close to that as possible but there is definitely some wiggle room. I don't consider fish or coral, or any consumable type items (water change salt, food, additives) etc. to count towards the budget. Live rock, initial salt mix, and substrate will though.

My overall goal is to have a 90-120+ mixed reef tank that I can display in our dining room. More than that though my eventual long term goal is to try to automate as much of this tank as possible. I am really intrigued by the Apex and controllers similar to it. I am also toying with the idea of creating my own aquarium controller system. By day I am an embedded software engineer.

I am being pretty picky about the tank itself. Because I want this to be displayed in my dining room I want it to look really nice. Due to this I am generally hesitant to pick up something off craigslist but I definitely would if it looked nice.

I have looked a bit at the Red Sea Reefer series and Innovative Marine Nuvo Shallow Reef Series tanks. I really like the rimless look, but I am not married to it. Cube's are ok, but I feel like they are better suited to be put in a corner rather than in the middle of a wall.

I am totally ok with the idea of DIY, I am very comfortable with electrical work and plumbing. Drilling glass would be a new experience for me but I have worked with acrylic a handful of times before.

Some of my questions are:

1. Where can I save money?
2. Where should I not try to save money? (What is important)
3. Is this a realistic budget?

[SeanPep]

Something I heard when I started was buy what you want from the start. Don't buy something with the thought that you are going to buy a cheaper version and get what you want later down the road because you are going to just spend more money doing it that way. With that in mind, I spent close to 10k before I put my first fish in but that was for a 180 gallon tank.

This isn't a cheap hobby by any means but you can always be on the look out for deals and sales. Just got to do your research!

[re76]

I already find myself going down this path. I currently have a shopping cart full of items at Bulk Reef Supply which are the things I would buy if money was not an issue. I think I am up close to 3-4k without even considering the tank and live rock.

I could always put this together slowly over many months and just piecemeal it. That is more palatable to my budget, but I think it would be a cruel form of torture to just be slowly accumulating a bunch of things that I couldn't use yet.

[flooddc]

Unless you're getting all high-end equipment and don't want to DIY, then you can easily achieve it way below your initial budget. Just my 2 cent! Best of Luck
Read through this post to get some ideas.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2570142

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by SeanPep

Something I heard when I started was buy what you want from the start. Don't buy something with the thought that you are going to buy a cheaper version and get what you want later down the road because you are going to just spend more money doing it that way. With that in mind, I spent close to 10k before I put my first fish in but that was for a 180 gallon tank.

This isn't a cheap hobby by any means but you can always be on the look out for deals and sales. Just got to do your research!

sage like advice. i wasted loads of money in the first two or so years of this hobby trying to save a few pennies here and there on things like lights and skimmers, etc...

$4,000 is a nice, healthy budget to start with.

getting some of the stuff off craigslist, or through other local hobbyists used, can be a real good way to save some cash. tanks, stands, and hoods are at the top of my list for good used pick ups. just make sure that you see them holding water, or able to leak test before paying.

rock is also another thing that can often be purchased for a decent deal this way. just know that you might need to put a little effort in to cleaning it, and there are various ways to go about that that aren't too much trouble.

depending on what you're thinking as far as setup goes, lights, skimmers, and powerheads can also be bought used, as long as you carefully validate function before purchase. in most cases a nice vinegar soak and toothbrush scrub can bring equipment back to life with otherwise minimal effort.

i would be cautious buying LEDs used, as they're the kind of thing i prefer to have a manufacturer warranty on for at least some period of time, but that's personal preference.

my absolute must have list of equipment, in no particular order:

- good skimmer
- good lights (if planning on corals, otherwise whatever looks nice)
- good powerheads
- auto top off system (ATO)
- good quality heaters, titanium are nice
- controller for said heaters. a full blown controller like an apex is awesome (i have one and wouldn't reef without it) but barring that you can pick up a cheaper heater controller like a ranco. budget friendly while still offering you protection from a heater gone wild.
- RODI system
- quarantine strategy
- sump. i wouldn't reef without a sump. period. i started out without one, and my life has improved immeasurably since i added one to my rig.

i wouldn't waste money on live sand. i generally consider that just nasty crap in a bag. i've used it before, and can't say there was much about that was useful, unless your wallet has too much money in it. dry sand is cheaper and easier to work with, but will need washed.

you don't need to start with all live rock. you can save some money buying mostly dry rock, then just get a few pounds of live rock to help jump start your cycle.

don't bother with a canister filter.

if you can spare the room, a refugium in your sump is a very nice thing to have.

when we moved in to our new house i was able to upgrade to a larger tank. along with this, i was also able to designate about 1/3 of our basement as my fish area. this includes a grow out system, QT, mixing vessels for salt water and fresh water reservoir, and... plumbing through the floor do deliver saltwater and fresh water to the tank above. it wasn't an option sadly to put the sump in the basement, but this is the next best things. my water changes take less than 30 minutes now, most of that time is spent waiting for the water to drain.

good luck.

[thegrun]

Yes I think a $4,000 budget is realistic. I like the dimensions of a standard 120 gallon tank for a reef tank (48" x 24" x 24" tall), although a 150 gallon tank (48"x 30" x 24"tall) is my absolute favorite for a reef tank. Either way I think those two tank sizes would be well suited to your needs and budget. I have a 120 gallon tank set up myself, I just posted a one year old thread and in that thread I list all my equipment which may be a help to you in figuring out your equipment and costs. I agree with the post above in that trying to save a few dollars here or there on cheap equipment usually leads to frustration and added costs in the long run when you have to go out and purchase the quality equipment you should have bought in the first place and throw out the cheap equipment. Lighting in going to be your largest single expense so keep that in mind when selecting a tank size. Most of the LED lights on the market are designed around covering about a 24" or 30" square, so if you elect to purchase a tank that is say 36" wide it could cost you a lot more in lighting. You can save a lot of money by purchasing quality used equipment that is in good shape. Best of luck planning the new system, feel free to post more specific questions as you narrow in on exactly what tank size you are going to purchase.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2575506

[re76]

Wow, I must say I am blown away by how responsive these boards are. Less than an hour and a TON of good advice already!

@flooddc: That post is awesome, thanks so much for linking it!

@MondoBongo: Woah, I'm from Pittsburgh too. What part of Pittsburgh are you from? Any good local resources? Thank you for the good list of must have equipment. I have to keep reminding myself not to forget about a quarantine tank.

@thegrun: I definitely would love to go with a 120. Although I am concerned it will definitely squeeze every last drop of out of my budget. I think that will happen regardless though... As a side note that 120g tank of yours is stunning and I would consider this project a success if I could achieve something half as good as that! Will definitely add that thread to my growing list of "things I need to read".

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by re76

@MondoBongo: Woah, I'm from Pittsburgh too. What part of Pittsburgh are you from? Any good local resources? Thank you for the good list of must have equipment. I have to keep reminding myself not to forget about a quarantine tank..

hey, always nice to see another Pittsburgher. i'm in the Greenfield section of the city if you're familiar.

i choose not to associate with the local reef club for various reasons, but they have a section on this board:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=181

i believe they're actually even having a meet up this weekend, i'm sure there will be more details in the sub forum.

let me know if you have any questions, or are looking for anything specific. i have a lot of stuff sitting around, included seeded sponges in my sump if you need any starter media for the tank. i think i also have a bottle of Dr. Tim's ammonia too if you're looking for cycle stuff.

plenty of local stores as options too, i've dealt with all of them to varying degrees and have opinions on them, PM me if you have any questions. i don't like to discuss stores here publicly anymore, it is too much of a hot button issue.

and when you get to the point where you're wanting to start corals, definitely hit me up. i usually have frags out the wazoo. i'm mostly SPS now, but have some LPS, and always plenty of pieces of montis and acros to help get you started.

my preferred method of quarantine now is Tank Transfer Method (aka TTM), followed by a 5 - 6 week stay in my grow out system, before being moved to the main system. i don't use copper, but i do treat with two rounds of PraziPro to help kick any internal parasites. i rely on TTM and the follow up observation period to protect against other diseases. i've found that if done correctly this is a well tolerated QT protocol, for even delicate specimens.

glad to see another local reefer. sounds like you're off to a good start.

[MondoBongo]

also, weirdly, i'm a software engineer too. i don't do embedded, all applications so far, but yeah, what a weird bit of happenstance.

[rvlcf]

I just set up a Reefer 450, and I will say it is a stunning tank! If you can get the remaining equipment you need for $1500 then I would highly recommend this tank. It is a very modern sleek design which i love.

[re76]

@MondoBongo: Yes I am quite familiar with that area. That is one of the places we looked at houses originally. We ended up over in the far west side of Wilkinsburg, right next to Frick park and the Regent Square area

I don't really need anything yet, mainly just advice, but I will definitely get in touch with you when I am going to start getting my hands dirty. I'm not sure if I can send PM's yet as I just joined today, I will give it a shot though.

[re76]

@rvlcf: I agree they are really nice looking tanks. They have a very clean and modern look. One of my big concerns though is the lack of a refugium. I like that it comes with a sump and ATO already but it irks me that I don't even get to have the choice of running a refugium unless I add it separately.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by re76

@MondoBongo: Yes I am quite familiar with that area. That is one of the places we looked at houses originally. We ended up over in the far west side of Wilkinsburg, right next to Frick park and the Regent Square area

I don't really need anything yet, mainly just advice, but I will definitely get in touch with you when I am going to start getting my hands dirty. I'm not sure if I can send PM's yet as I just joined today, I will give it a shot though.

hell we're practically neighbors.

yeah i think you need to be a member for a short amount of time and get a few posts before you can PM, but if i recall correctly it's not too many or too long.

give me a shout, cheers.

[rvlcf]

I think the ATO is too small anyway. I will be using a huge, 25 gallon antique wine jug with my tunze osmolator on this tank as soon as my old tank comes offline.
Some people are drilling the ato on the reefer tanks and turning them into refugiums.
I going to go with biopellets and gfo, instead of a refugium.

[re76]

Originally Posted by rvlcf

I think the ATO is too small anyway. I will be using a huge, 25 gallon antique wine jug with my tunze osmolator on this tank as soon as my old tank comes offline.
Some people are drilling the ato on the reefer tanks and turning them into refugiums.
I going to go with biopellets and gfo, instead of a refugium.

I have seen some of those ATO refugium conversions. They look pretty nice, and might be a viable option. Are you documenting your experiences with the reefer anywhere? (that is such a silly sentence when taken out of context...)

I would love to follow along if you are.

[rvlcf]

I don't have a build thread and don't know if I will set one up. The tank was only set up this past Friday so there is not a lot of info yet. I can tell you it is dead silent when running.
There is a 450 build thread here by "Broadfield" which i highly recommend reading if your seriously thnking about this tank.

[Sk8r]

Your budget is about right. First do some research and describe precisely what critters you want in the tank. Then we can tell you what will actually do well together, what could make trouble for a novice---or is just impossible---and where you can cut corners. Hint: lighting strength determines coral survival; a good skimmer, stable chemistry, and enough live rock helps fish live; 'reef safe' does not mean it won't eat its tankmates [it actually means probably won't eat your corals]; and 'rare' means 'usually dies' or 'only the Georgia Aquarium could keep this one alive.' Srsly, it's not a hard hobby, but it does require some automations (mine consist of a couple of pumps, a float switch and some timers, others spring for a controller with far more capabilities.) If you do this right your fish live for many years and your corals reproduce so fast you're trying to find homes for the excess.
Welcome in!

[kgeig001]

Get the biggest tank that looks right for the space. Notice I didn't say to just get the biggest tank possible. Many people get tanks that are too big for the space they're in and it can overwhelm the room. You want a piece of furniture that compliments the room. Do it right the first time because it's never fun breaking down a tank because you didn't plan it out right...just my 2 cents

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[re76]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

Your budget is about right. First do some research and describe precisely what critters you want in the tank. Then we can tell you what will actually do well together, what could make trouble for a novice---or is just impossible---and where you can cut corners. Hint: lighting strength determines coral survival; a good skimmer, stable chemistry, and enough live rock helps fish live; 'reef safe' does not mean it won't eat its tankmates [it actually means probably won't eat your corals]; and 'rare' means 'usually dies' or 'only the Georgia Aquarium could keep this one alive.' Srsly, it's not a hard hobby, but it does require some automations (mine consist of a couple of pumps, a float switch and some timers, others spring for a controller with far more capabilities.) If you do this right your fish live for many years and your corals reproduce so fast you're trying to find homes for the excess.
Welcome in!

This is good advice, and definitely something I need to take some time to do. I have gone to the LFS a few times now to try and get a feel for what I really like. I have a pretty good idea at this point now I just need to figure out what all these corals and fish are called. I am definitely more of a coral guy I think. In my head I imagine this being a coral tank first and a fish tank second, but I definitely want a handful of fish.

Originally Posted by kgeig001

Get the biggest tank that looks right for the space. Notice I didn't say to just get the biggest tank possible. Many people get tanks that are too big for the space they're in and it can overwhelm the room. You want a piece of furniture that compliments the room. Do it right the first time because it's never fun breaking down a tank because you didn't plan it out right...just my 2 cents

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Thanks for the great advice. Definitely going to do my best to nail this the first time. We don't have anything else planned for this wall so I think I will have plenty of space to work with. Going to bust out ye olde tape measure regardless and see where we end up.