Strange blotches on the Tang

[Crimson11]

Good morning,

I am treating 2 tangs and a dragonet with cumpramine for ich since 24 days.

All them are eating like crazy (pallets, frozen, algae etc.), water parameters are OK, but Zebrasoma flavescens has some fins rot and
Acanthurus leucosternon has some brown blotches on it.

First I thought there were not enough hiding spots so they were stressing each other but I added new spots to hide a couple of days ago but nothing has changed.

Do you think it is some kinda stress, or lack of vitamin related or any bacterial etc. infection ?
Thanks a lot for your responses.

[Bent]

That does indeed look like a bacterial infection. By just seeing the pics of him I can tell you that his infection is probably going to kill him. Let's get it treated, but we have to identify the organism and make a treatment plan, so let's break it down here.


Typically IME bacterial infections are usually secondary to two things.
1: underlying parasitic infestations. The open spots in the skin that crypto causes are often a source of entry for infection on a fish that's already immunocomprimised from the crypto to begin with.
2: malnutrition. The animal is malnourished, and does not have the energy or immune system to fight off the infection.

While it's possible, and likely that it does have crypto since pbts are prone to it, looking at the pics I would say that malnutrition is more of a problem. That is one skinny fish. So if our treatment is going to be successful we have to fatten him up. So feed some high quality food, nori sheets soaked in selcon, etc.

The copper treatment also isn't helping much besides stressing the fish more, so I would stop that. Copper is ineffective at killing bacteria and it's going to kill his appetite.

Typically, it's difficult to identify gram negative vs gram positive so you have to treat based on prevalence and spectrum. Normally these infections are gram negative. But I usually try to use a broad spectrum antibiotic in case I'm wrong. I don't really worry too much about fish bacteria developing resistance since the percentage of animals getting bacterial treatments are really really low. So go for the sledgehammer drugs like neomycin, chloramphenicol, nitrofurazone based products, skin absorbed kanamycin sulfate based antibiotics such as Kanacyn/K-Mycin, and secondly tetracycline.

I usually advocate oral treatment and bath treatments so get two products. One that has to be doused on food and one for the water.

The whole time make sure your feeding the animal good to try to bolster its immune system.


IMO you will loose the fish based on the information given and the pictures, I'm sorry. If it were me I'd get some clove oil and euthanize it. It may pull through with treatment, but chances are slim and the amount of pain and anguish he's going to go through will be significant.

[Crimson11]

Thanks a lot for the help.

I will try to find the medicines based on your recommendations. Since I live in italy, most of the brands/products are not available here. I should check with the local fish shop to see what they will recommend.

Does this kind of bacteria is contagious ? so I should not remove any of the fishes even they do not show any sign or can I put the others in the DT ?

[Bent]

Does Amazon ship to Italy?

[Bent]

Kanamycin-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CJ0...NiL&ref=plSrch

Minocycline-
https://www.google.com/search?q=mino...obile&ie=UTF-8

[Crimson11]

they do but it will take at least a week knowing the italian customs, which will be too late I guess...
let me check with the local shop, they are very helpful people.

So I should not move other fish to dt?

[Bent]

Originally Posted by Crimson11

they do but it will take at least a week knowing the italian customs, which will be too late I guess...
let me check with the local shop, they are very helpful people.

So I should not move other fish to dt?

If they are sharing the same QT then no I would not. I would treat everything in the QT for the same bacteria, symptoms or no.

After their treatment, I would also advise putting each one in its own QT and doing TTM, especially the tangs. Then formalin dip them.

The decision to move the dragonet is one you may have to make. In QT with no pods he will starve to death.

[Crimson11]

Originally Posted by Bent

If they are sharing the same QT then no I would not. I would treat everything in the QT for the same bacteria, symptoms or no.

ok got it.

the easiest medicine which I can get from the shops here in italy is Aquarium Munster dessamor / faunamor.

let me check it tomorrow since the shops are closed now.

Thanks a lot for your help.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by Crimson11

ok got it.

the easiest medicine which I can get from the shops here in italy is Aquarium Munster dessamor / faunamor.

let me check it tomorrow since the shops are closed now.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Looking at this stuff on the net, I'm not sure how effective it would be.

The dessa mor looks like a copper Med and the fauna mor looks like it is for freshwater ich.

[Crimson11]

Originally Posted by Bent

Looking at this stuff on the net, I'm not sure how effective it would be.

The dessa mor looks like a copper Med and the fauna mor looks like it is for freshwater ich.

I will check it.
thanks a lot again.

[Bent]

No problem, hope it works out for you.

If you end up deciding to euthanize him, clove oil will put him to sleep. Here are the instructions:
http://kb.rspca.org.au/what-is-the-m...-fish_403.html

[scuzy]

Kanamycin is great anti bacterial med. Used it a few times. It also absorbs through the skin to which is great.

[Crimson11]

As bent said the Acanthurus did not make it. and it seems i am not able to find any of the stated medicines in Italy so I need to wait for the shipment.

My only other option is to use an antibiotic Trimethoprin & Sulfonamide from a pharmacy which seems to be the same as maracyn plus.

Though I should check if it is compatible with cupramine even the copper is in small amounts.

Still waiting for the shop to open to ask for advise.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by Crimson11

As bent said the Acanthurus did not make it. and it seems i am not able to find any of the stated medicines in Italy so I need to wait for the shipment.

My only other option is to use an antibiotic Trimethoprin & Sulfonamide from a pharmacy which seems to be the same as maracyn plus.

Though I should check if it is compatible with cupramine even the copper is in small amounts.

Still waiting for the shop to open to ask for advise.

Unfortunatley, the only way that you can is to either use a specific copper absorbing product like coprisorb or something. Or you can just keep doing daily 75% water changes and keep diluting it until it's nearly gone.

Trimethoprim may just work, Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole is a very powerful antibiotic and we typically use it to treat serious infections in immunocomprimised patients. We use it also for prevention of Pneumocystis pneumonia with newly diagnosed HiV patients.

If I can remember, it's been a while since I've hung it, it is broad spectrum and effective against gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Specifically E.Coli and freaking cholera I think.

As to the dose....your guess is as good as mine dude. Let me chew on this some and see if I can think of a dose.

Anyone else have an idea?

[Crimson11]

Originally Posted by Bent

Unfortunatley, the only way that you can is to either use a specific copper absorbing product like coprisorb or something. Or you can just keep doing daily 75% water changes and keep diluting it until it's nearly gone.

Trimethoprim may just work, Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole is a very powerful antibiotic and we typically use it to treat serious infections in immunocomprimised patients. We use it also for prevention of Pneumocystis pneumonia with newly diagnosed HiV patients.

If I can remember, it's been a while since I've hung it, it is broad spectrum and effective against gram negative and gram positive bacteria. Specifically E.Coli and freaking cholera I think.

As to the dose....your guess is as good as mine dude. Let me chew on this some and see if I can think of a dose.

Anyone else have an idea?

I used it before in freshwater aquarium and it did saved all the fish.

The dosage is quarter of the tablet for 27 gallons and for marine and it is half of the tablet for freshwater.

Some repeat the dose every 24 / 48 hours with partial water change for 3 days at least. The shop recommended to dose it every 5 days. I'll stick with the advise.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by Crimson11

I used it before in freshwater aquarium and it did saved all the fish.

The dosage is quarter of the tablet for 27 gallons and for marine and it is half of the tablet for freshwater.

Some repeat the dose every 24 / 48 hours with partial water change for 3 days at least. The shop recommended to dose it every 5 days. I'll stick with the advise.

Ok sweet. Let us know how it goes.

[Crimson11]

Zebrasome is doing fine in dt as the antibiotics worked, the fins grew back.

Synchiropus is dead after refusing to eat the granular pallets/frozen food which it was fine to eat in qt.

Time to go and get some new fish & perhaps corals...

[Bent]

Originally Posted by Crimson11

Zebrasome is doing fine in dt as the antibiotics worked, the fins grew back.

Synchiropus is dead after refusing to eat the granular pallets/frozen food which it was fine to eat in qt.

Time to go and get some new fish & perhaps corals...

Good job! You can't save them all Unfortunatley. But both fish would have died with the average hobbyist.

This is you e-fist bump!

[Crimson11]

ahah thank you.

I bought 2 corals, litophytum & clavularia... there was not any interesting fish except an oxymonacanthus longirostris which was not eating and had an inflated stomach. :|

I guess next time i will go for another clarkii and a blue powder again.