Help with New Copperbanded Butterfly

[BigDMach]

Hello this is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking for a few months now. I am hoping I can get some help regarding a new fish I just purchased but first ill give you the details of my tank.

Tank-

40g not using a sump or overflow system at this time.
Eshopps psk-100h hang on the back skimmer
Fluval Heater
Fluval Powerhead
40-50 lbs live rock
2-3" live sand bed
Salinity is kept at 1.023
Tank has been setup for 8 weeks now.

I just ran my usual tests this afternoon and they returned the following results. All of these results were gathered using a Red Sea brand test kit.

Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - Appeared to be between .05 and .1

The tank is currently stocked with the following.

2 - Ocelaris clown fish (Been in the tank for roughly 3 weeks)
1 - Copperbanded Butterfly (Been in the tank 2 days)
3 - Mexican Turbo snails (Been in the tank roughly 4 weeks)
2 - Nassarius snails (Been in the tank roughly 4 weeks)
1 - small Hermit Crab (Been in the tank roughly 4 weeks)

All of the above listed wildlife seems to be thriving in the tank with the exception of the Copperband and it has me confused. When I brought the Copperband (CBB) home this past Saturday he took an hour or two to get acclimated to his new home but after that he went around and was grazing around all of the live rock for the rest of the night. Starting late yesterday he has been very lethargic. He only moves very little and mostly stays in the back corner of the tank. Today when I came home from work he was floating vertically towards the top of the tank. He is not doing this all the time but probably spends 95% of his time this way. When I picked him out at the LFS i watched him eat frozen brine and Mysis shrimp before I took him home. Since he has been home I have offered him frozen Brine shrimp, frozen Mysis shrimp, live Black worms and today a small fresh water mussel. He is not interested in food at all.

I am sorry for the long post but my new fish really has me worried. Any help that you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Edit - I also wanted to add that I have only ever used RO/DI water attained from a local fish store to fill this tank and do water changes.

[GimpyFin]

Sorry to hear about your fish. Copperbands are generally not an easy fish and can be difficult to feed. I'm not sure I'd recommend keeping one long term in a 40g tank either (They really need at least 75-100g.) That said, it's a good idea to quarantine new fish for at least a few weeks or longer depending. Especially with less hardy, more delicate fish, this gives them a chance to get comfortable and to see that they will eat good. It also allows you to monitor and if necessary, treat any illness accordingly before putting them in your main tank with everything else.

[BigDMach]

Originally Posted by GimpyFin

Sorry to hear about your fish. Copperbands are generally not an easy fish and can be difficult to feed. I'm not sure I'd recommend keeping one long term in a 40g tank either (They really need at least 75-100g.) That said, it's a good idea to quarantine new fish for at least a few weeks or longer depending. Especially with less hardy, more delicate fish, this gives them a chance to get comfortable and to see that they will eat good. It also allows you to monitor and if necessary, treat any illness accordingly before putting them in your main tank with everything else.

I appreciate the response. He is a juvenile at less than 2 inches long. The plan was to move him to a bigger tank before he outgrew the one he's in. I had the thought of illness but there isn't anything that i can see externally wrong with him so I wouldn't begin to know how/what to treat. Thanks again for the input.

[heathlindner25]

Yeah that's kind of what they do, I wouldn't blame yourself.

[MondoBongo]

the first thing i would look at is why you're showing nitrites in an established tank. that's not right. i've never seen my nitrates give any indication of being anything but 0 once a cycle has completely successfully. i bet you're also seeing ammonia spikes, but likely missed it in your testing window.

you've added a decent amount of livestock very quickly. 8 weeks is still a newborn tank. i certainly wouldn't be attempting to introduce anything that required the amount of feeding and care as a CBB to a tank that young, or that small.

how did you introduce him to the tank? what was your acclimation procedure? i see you're not quarantining, you'll likely want to rethink that sooner rather than later. especially when dealing more delicate fish like CBB, having a QT protocol in place not only serves as a good way to mitigate disease introduction, it also gives time for the new fish to acclimate to your care, and begin eating in an environment free of stress and competition. butterflyfish are also susceptible to internal parasites, as with any other new introductions to my systems, they get two full rounds of prazi while in QT.

once they stop eating, that's generally the beginning of the end. unless you can convince him to start taking food, i would expect that he will not last too much longer, especially if he's not picking up on the live food.

the clowns likely seem to be thriving because they're damn near bulletproof. if you're killing clownfish, your tank is probably on fire or perhaps exploding. i wouldn't use them as the yard stick to determine success for other fish, especially touchy things like butterflys.

[BigDMach]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

the first thing i would look at is why you're showing nitrites in an established tank. that's not right. i've never seen my nitrates give any indication of being anything but 0 once a cycle has completely successfully. i bet you're also seeing ammonia spikes, but likely missed it in your testing window.

you've added a decent amount of livestock very quickly. 8 weeks is still a newborn tank. i certainly wouldn't be attempting to introduce anything that required the amount of feeding and care as a CBB to a tank that young, or that small.

how did you introduce him to the tank? what was your acclimation procedure? i see you're not quarantining, you'll likely want to rethink that sooner rather than later. especially when dealing more delicate fish like CBB, having a QT protocol in place not only serves as a good way to mitigate disease introduction, it also gives time for the new fish to acclimate to your care, and begin eating in an environment free of stress and competition. butterflyfish are also susceptible to internal parasites, as with any other new introductions to my systems, they get two full rounds of prazi while in QT.

once they stop eating, that's generally the beginning of the end. unless you can convince him to start taking food, i would expect that he will not last too much longer, especially if he's not picking up on the live food.

the clowns likely seem to be thriving because they're damn near bulletproof. if you're killing clownfish, your tank is probably on fire or perhaps exploding. i wouldn't use them as the yard stick to determine success for other fish, especially touchy things like butterflys.

Thanks for the reply. I believe my nitrates were elevated because I was running a Fluval 205 canister filter along with my skimmer but recently decided to take it off after reading that they can be a "nitrate factory". I do need to look into setting up a proper QT tank. Perhaps that will give me a project for this weekend while the wife is at work.

I always start my acclimation with the fish still in the bag from the store and just float the bag for 20-30 minutes to normalize the temperate of the water in the bag. After that time has elapsed I then move them into my breeder box where I setup a drip system to slowly introduce my tank water over the course of another 30-45 minutes. After I have completed both tasks I will generally add them to my tank.

[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by BigDMach

Thanks for the reply. I believe my nitrates were elevated because I was running a Fluval 205 canister filter along with my skimmer but recently decided to take it off after reading that they can be a "nitrate factory". I do need to look into setting up a proper QT tank. Perhaps that will give me a project for this weekend while the wife is at work.

I always start my acclimation with the fish still in the bag from the store and just float the bag for 20-30 minutes to normalize the temperate of the water in the bag. After that time has elapsed I then move them into my breeder box where I setup a drip system to slowly introduce my tank water over the course of another 30-45 minutes. After I have completed both tasks I will generally add them to my tank.

i'm not worried about your niTRATE, you said your niTRITE was elevated in your original post.

[Sounds Fishy]

I agree with MondoBongo...Yes,CBB's require perfect water conditions.Even a trace of Nitrites is very bad.I think your aquarium experienced the inability to cope with the increased bio load of all your new livestock,and has gone through another cycle,(mini cycle)that was very difficult for your CBB.They are very delicate. 8 weeks is still an unstable chemistry to a CBB.They are canaries in a coal mine,if your parameters go off acceptable limits...Much better chance at survival,in an established aquarium.


In the early seventies,when I started up this hobby it was the norm to stick a clownfish in your brand new marine set up to start the cycle.This at the time was not thought of as being barbaric.However,now we know that is very Barbaric and this practice has ceased.The point is,however these fish can survive in a cycling aquarium,from history.

[heathlindner25]

I think it was because it was a copper banded butterfly, and I would estimate 8 out of 10 die from my experience.

[BigBlueTang]

Originally Posted by heathlindner25

I think it was because it was a copper banded butterfly, and I would estimate 8 out of 10 die from my experience.

In the hands of a newbie.. I would agree.

However, someone who's done their research and is ready with a flora and fauna filled QT? Much better shot.

Just trying to be an optimist.. These kind of quotes make me sad, although they're a harsh reality..

[Bent]

I've never been able to get either a copperband butterfly or a ribbon eel to eat.

Best left in the ocean. Id go so far to say 9/10 die if not higher. No evidence for that, but considering that the last statistic I read from an actual study said that over 90% of fish collected for aquarium trades die, I'd almost bet these more delicate animals are much higher.

[kmbyrnes]

I'm 0-3 on CBB and I have manged to keep many difficult fish alive.
BigDMach, it may be your experience level, but I think that CBB are just difficult fish, so don't feel too bad if this one doesn't make it.
In the future, ask the LFS to feed the fish and and see him eat at the LFS before taking him home. And always ask how long they have had the fish at the store. I try to purchase only fish that have survived at the LFS for at least 3 weeks. I may miss a few chances for fish I want, but my survival rate has increased since I started doing this.

[Sounds Fishy]

Originally Posted by Bent

I've never been able to get either a copperband butterfly or a ribbon eel to eat.

Best left in the ocean. Id go so far to say 9/10 die if not higher. No evidence for that, but considering that the last statistic I read from an actual study said that over 90% of fish collected for aquarium trades die, I'd almost bet these more delicate animals are much higher.

Hi Bent,
I am sucessful(very lucky)to have had an escape artist Ribbon eel with a furocious appetite and presently...a CBB and Moorish Idol ,and a fat Singapore Angel...that have almost tripled their size in 6 months.The secret is to pray before you go to bed at night to the "Patron Saint of Hard to Feed Fishes"
(PSHFF).There is a 1-800 number you call @ .15 cent per minute.Heck,I got that number in 1988 .I got the number from a cab driver in New York.I tipped him a very generous tip and in return,he gave me the number.(it was unusually wet that evening.I was in Manhatten,and I was soaked .Someone tried to steal this brief caseI was carrying and the driver pulled up just in time and saved me.I remember this nasty bump I got on my head,but otherwise,I was okay.Just upset by the ordeal.Thats when the conversation got onto aquariums).I usually spend Two bucks a night praying.Sometimes if one of them is getting flukes,I may pray an extra .45 cents.All prices are in USDfunds and they accept CDN money at par.You do not have to worry...I am Canadian.It works for me.I will pm. you the number,okay...

But be very careful to read your credit card statements.The PSHFF accidentally overcharged me on my MasterCard a few times and forgot to give me air miles.They have a very good customer service however,if any happens related to billing,they will always credit your account,and give 3% discount on your next 3 prayers,but,only if you request it.You have 30 days in which to use that discount,or as I discovered,it becomes invalid.If you become a member there is a 10% discount for prayers made on Wednesdays(from April to October).I am not a member however,because the dues are ridiculously high.I won't even mention it.I heard they are going to raise the dues in the future.As you know,everything is always going up in price.
They do offer volume prayer discounts and because I use the service daily,that translates into a substantial savings in my opinion!

Please understand Bent it is the only way you can make these fish survive,or so the cab driver,said.It works for me...Anyway I am moving soon,so if you want my fish they are yours as long as you use the PAHFF prayer line.I simply cannot afford it anymore.

[Bent]

Originally Posted by Sounds Fishy

Hi Bent,
I am sucessful(very lucky)to have had a Ribbon eel with a furocious appetite and a CBB and Moorish Idol that have tripled their size in 6 months.The secret is to pray before you go to bed at night to the "Patron Saint of Hard to Feed Fishes"
(PSHFF).There is a 1-800 number you call @ .15 cent per minute.I usually spent Two bucks a night praying.It works for me.I will pm. you the number,okay...

Lol lucky dog.

How long have you had them? A blue ribbon eel long term is one of my dream fish.

Care to share your secret of how you got it eating?

[Sounds Fishy]

First,the prayers.Just dumb luck,really....My Ribbon eel committed suicide 4 or 5 years ago by squeezing out of a 3 mm gap between the glass top at the lip of the rim.When I was ready to buy one(I waited 20 years),I found a specimen that was at the LFS.I was told it had been eating Mysis.I bought it,gave it an appropriate home to live in,however 3 weeks it was a total anorexic.For the entire 3 weeks I tried all the usual tricks for enticing your Blue Ribbon eel.I was distraught.I was amazed it went so long without eating ,and still was alive.I was,however increasingly pessimistic,and generally feeling down,because I thought,in the beginning it was going to live,and now,somehow,contributing to it's death.Nothing worked....except....one night It ate my neon Dottyback.After that it became a real pig for fresh live "Rosie's"....It ate 3 or 4 every night with the moonlights on.It was like a puppy ,before I'd go for nightshift,waiting for me to drop 3 or four live Rosie's into the125 gallon aquarium.He would stick it's head out of the neck of the PVC pipe he called home.I watched every night.He would grab them with his mouth as they neared.When he hooked one he'd dunk quickly into his hole consume it in 15 seconds,them come out and repeat the procedure,till they were all gone.He was a skilled hunter.This went on for 8 months,daily.Then he escaped,and end of story.


My Moorih Idol is a Sept.2016edition,CBB has been in since Dec. and miraculously holds it's own,with 2 Yellow Tangs,and the MI,who can be a handful at times since it has such a large ego.The Singapore has also chased the CBB around initially.I feed a lot of clams,shrimp,mysis,nori,red worms,brine and mysis shrimp(all the good stuff).I feed 4 or 5 times a day.They all have fantastic appetite,and have all grown very well.The other half of the equation is filtration,and maintaining decent parameters.I do 5 gallon p /day water changes.I have 350 pounds of live rock.Most of it is luck getting a specimen that is capable of survival.I seem to be very lucky.I am moving 60 miles down the road on July.I am going to hire a pro outfit to move my system,since I can't lift the 220 by myself anyway.I hope all of these friends of mine survive.one more thing is I have 12 large powerheads plus one of those wave makers,allshooting turbulence,and pulsating in various rhythms.Seems to help.